Seminaries CoC

PeterZ wrote:Anwi is right. The Return will pretty much force a confrontation with the Truth. Safehold has to deal with it. If anyone thinks that the CoGA won't be part of the solution is wrong.

The Return will lead to Merlin and the Sleeper(s) confronting the purpose of Operation Ark. I doubt that confrontation will be private. Assuming this confrontation takes place in The Temple, most of the CoGA leadership will be witness to it. How those leaders react to such an exchange will be very important to how the story progresses.

Oh yes, I agree completely. The ideas for the seminaries & the university are what I think of as the Ideal Path - what the Inner Circle might do if they won the war and manage to abort the return of the Archangels. Basically reinstating the original colony plan, or as close as they can manage. And from RFCs record that's not what's gonna happen. While none of us can know what the plan is, I think we can be confident that: It's gonna be big, it's gonna be loud, and it's gonna be messy.

OTOH, the characters don't know that, and from their perspective the seminary and university ideas make perfect sense.

jms

Interestingly I could see post the truth that Harchong becomes like communist China in beliefs a rejection of all "superstition" regardless of the form it comes in.

And maybe Charis which religion post truth is based on Arch Bishop Maikel teaching and the very best of earth faith's will be able to create something that will survive and grow.

So religion in Safehold has a sort of Darwinian process happening. CoGA will wither on the vine and its greatest supporters will lose faith in any thing supernatual.

While those listening to the teaching Arch Bishop Maikel will have a belief structure that is adaptable, plausible and believable for some people post the truth.

Alistair wrote:Interestingly I could see post the truth that Harchong becomes like communist China in beliefs a rejection of all "superstition" regardless of the form it comes in.

And maybe Charis which religion post truth is based on Arch Bishop Maikel teaching and the very best of earth faith's will be able to create something that will survive and grow.

So religion in Safehold has a sort of Darwinian process happening. CoGA will wither on the vine and its greatest supporters will lose faith in any thing supernatual.

While those listening to the teaching Arch Bishop Maikel will have a belief structure that is adaptable, plausible and believable for some people post the truth.

To keep the metaphor going- If religion has a Darwinian process going, then the reveal of the truth will be like the asteroid that hit Earth 65 million years ago. It didn't create a new world so much as let one emerge from the ruins.

jms

jmseeley wrote:

PeterZ wrote:Anwi is right. The Return will pretty much force a confrontation with the Truth. Safehold has to deal with it. If anyone thinks that the CoGA won't be part of the solution is wrong.

The Return will lead to Merlin and the Sleeper(s) confronting the purpose of Operation Ark. I doubt that confrontation will be private. Assuming this confrontation takes place in The Temple, most of the CoGA leadership will be witness to it. How those leaders react to such an exchange will be very important to how the story progresses.

Oh yes, I agree completely. The ideas for the seminaries & the university are what I think of as the Ideal Path - what the Inner Circle might do if they won the war and manage to abort the return of the Archangels. Basically reinstating the original colony plan, or as close as they can manage. And from RFCs record that's not what's gonna happen. While none of us can know what the plan is, I think we can be confident that: It's gonna be big, it's gonna be loud, and it's gonna be messy.

OTOH, the characters don't know that, and from their perspective the seminary and university ideas make perfect sense.

jms

The original plan is long gone and there is no retrieving it. What happens from here will be something new, a circumstance that the mission planners could not have envisioned.

Don

Hi Anwi,

There are still ~17 years before the return, if the raid etc on Zion doesn't trigger it earlier.

So the proposed system could have 15+ years to make its impact, which is far better than nothing.

I suspect the imperial university system will also have a republican competitor, NTM Silkiah, Dohlar, and South Harchong, etc.

L

anwi wrote:

jmseeley wrote:
I agree. Right now religion is the glue that holds civilization together. The CoC is working to change that, but the work is really just starting. If the truth came out now I think there would be a religious war and a purge that would dwarf the present war, followed by a long dark age. Staynair is trying to create a church that can survive the truth and still provide the glue to keep society intact (more or less). If he fails, then it might be another millennium before Merlin and Nimue can try again to reawaken humanity.

I suggest a complementary movement: Expand the Royal College into an Imperial University system, with 'campuses' at least in every capitol of the Empire. A key part of the curriculum would be the same sort of science and faith discussions you suggest for the CoC. It could sponsor public lectures and other outreach to make the new innovations less fearsome to the average person. It would also be critical in letting Charis tap the potential of their people, which is vital for the future prosperity of the Empire.

IMO, Irys and Hektor would be the natural choice to drive the new education system.

jms

Well, we have the return of the Archangels as well as "the big reveal", which are already announced to happen. From a storytelling perspective, RFC might not be interested in describing a multi-decade reeducation effort. Because, essentially, the inner circle is not planning on loosening the truth on Safehold in the lifetimes of Cayleb. I figure RFC planted these hints for accelerating a process which would be unsuitable to the kind of story he wants to tell.
So, while I'm not an opponent to some reeducation effort, I don't think we're going to see it...

lyonheart wrote:Hi Anwi,

There are still ~17 years before the return, if the raid etc on Zion doesn't trigger it earlier.

So the proposed system could have 15+ years to make its impact, which is far better than nothing.

I suspect the imperial university system will also have a republican competitor, NTM Silkiah, Dohlar, and South Harchong, etc.

Well, my reservations are not that it wouldn't make sense. In fact, the Royal College is the first Safeholdian university with technical and scientific disciplines. (I'd assume that there are institutions in every realm on graduate level theology, both laws, rhetoric, grammar, arts, medicine and veterinary medicine, agriculture and terraforming, and geography. While they will almost certainly not be in one institution (=university), those graduate level schools simply need to be there. Otherwise, there'd be no law masters, no priest seminaries, no medical doctors, etc. But I digress.)
Also, the Church of Charis is already fostering theological dispute, and the Reformist movement outside of Charis (as well as the reactionary forces in the CoGA) clearly show that the central matrix of Langhorne and Bedard was dissolving. You could give this process 17 years and whatever awakens below the Temple would find a very disturbing result - for him that is .
But how would you actually try to tell that as story? 17 years of continuous war and an octogenarian RFC publishes his modestly awaited 25th installment highlighting the defeat of the 4th Mighty Host from Harchong and the final conquest of Desnair City?
So, whatever RFC plans to do, it'll advance that part of the story. Currently, my best guess is that Aivah triggers that process. And then, all hell breaks loose...
Consequently, there'll be no Siddarmarkian university system, and nothing on Haven and Howard, as well. At least not until Merlin's mission on Safehold is practically accomplished. (Would he put himself before a banner on a KHVII, I wonder? )

anwi wrote:

lyonheart wrote:Hi Anwi,

There are still ~17 years before the return, if the raid etc on Zion doesn't trigger it earlier.

So the proposed system could have 15+ years to make its impact, which is far better than nothing.

I suspect the imperial university system will also have a republican competitor, NTM Silkiah, Dohlar, and South Harchong, etc.

Well, my reservations are not that it wouldn't make sense. In fact, the Royal College is the first Safeholdian university with technical and scientific disciplines. (I'd assume that there are institutions in every realm on graduate level theology, both laws, rhetoric, grammar, arts, medicine and veterinary medicine, agriculture and terraforming, and geography. While they will almost certainly not be in one institution (=university), those graduate level schools simply need to be there. Otherwise, there'd be no law masters, no priest seminaries, no medical doctors, etc. But I digress.)
Also, the Church of Charis is already fostering theological dispute, and the Reformist movement outside of Charis (as well as the reactionary forces in the CoGA) clearly show that the central matrix of Langhorne and Bedard was dissolving. You could give this process 17 years and whatever awakens below the Temple would find a very disturbing result - for him that is .
But how would you actually try to tell that as story? 17 years of continuous war and an octogenarian RFC publishes his modestly awaited 25th installment highlighting the defeat of the 4th Mighty Host from Harchong and the final conquest of Desnair City?
So, whatever RFC plans to do, it'll advance that part of the story. Currently, my best guess is that Aivah triggers that process. And then, all hell breaks loose...
Consequently, there'll be no Siddarmarkian university system, and nothing on Haven and Howard, as well. At least not until Merlin's mission on Safehold is practically accomplished. (Would he put himself before a banner on a KHVII, I wonder? )

I disagree about one point. You suggest that the Reformist movements are a sign that Langhorne's plan was breaking up. In fact, I think it is the opposite. The Reformists (other than on Charis) were trying to get back to the roots of Langhornist doctrine, before bureaucracy and the Inquisition changed it. It is the hypocrasies and excesses of the current Church leaders which have disillusioned some people. The Reformists wanted to remove those excesses, reforming the Church back to what the Archangels originally described. Should the Reformist movement on Haven have succeeded, the Church of God Awaiting could have been stronger and far less ripe for hearing the Truth.

SWM wrote:I disagree about one point. You suggest that the Reformist movements are a sign that Langhorne's plan was breaking up. In fact, I think it is the opposite. The Reformists (other than on Charis) were trying to get back to the roots of Langhornist doctrine, before bureaucracy and the Inquisition changed it. It is the hypocrasies and excesses of the current Church leaders which have disillusioned some people. The Reformists wanted to remove those excesses, reforming the Church back to what the Archangels originally described. Should the Reformist movement on Haven have succeeded, the Church of God Awaiting could have been stronger and far less ripe for hearing the Truth.

I agree to the latter conclusion. Unfortunately, these chances were gone with the (s)election of Clyntahn as Grand Inquisitor.
I think the process started with the reorganization of the major orders and the rise of the order of Schueler probably would have ripped apart the plans of Langhorne for a stable society in any case. (If it would have disturbed the plans of Chihiro is another matter.)
However, I was only rephrasing, probably in a rather inept way, an analysis by Merlin somewhere in the last two books on that matter, probably standing the arguments on the head. In the end, the conclusion that the central matrix was already dissolving is rather convincing.

anwi wrote:

SWM wrote:I disagree about one point. You suggest that the Reformist movements are a sign that Langhorne's plan was breaking up. In fact, I think it is the opposite. The Reformists (other than on Charis) were trying to get back to the roots of Langhornist doctrine, before bureaucracy and the Inquisition changed it. It is the hypocrasies and excesses of the current Church leaders which have disillusioned some people. The Reformists wanted to remove those excesses, reforming the Church back to what the Archangels originally described. Should the Reformist movement on Haven have succeeded, the Church of God Awaiting could have been stronger and far less ripe for hearing the Truth.

I agree to the latter conclusion. Unfortunately, these chances were gone with the (s)election of Clyntahn as Grand Inquisitor.
I think the process started with the reorganization of the major orders and the rise of the order of Schueler probably would have ripped apart the plans of Langhorne for a stable society in any case. (If it would have disturbed the plans of Chihiro is another matter.)
However, I was only rephrasing, probably in a rather inept way, an analysis by Merlin somewhere in the last two books on that matter, probably standing the arguments on the head. In the end, the conclusion that the central matrix was already dissolving is rather convincing.

With that, I agree--the central matrix was dissolving. Had the Reform movement actually gained traction, the matrix might have been able to recover some. But there was little chance of that. Part of the reason the matrix was dissolving was because the Reform movement was not succeeding, leading to increasing despair over the state of the Church leadership. Of course, another reason the matrix was dissolving was because there was so much corruption, which is why there was a need for a Reform movement. I guess that is part of what you were trying to say. The Reform movement was an indicator of the presence of corruption and decay in the central pillars of the matrix.

Spreading the Order of St. Zherneau and its sister order - in spirit if not in name, and at the "outer circle" level of just prepping for an independent role of conscience - to other islands in the EoC and perhaps Siddermark, is one key early step.

I expect Irys to be sponsoring a Royal College of Corisande soon, on the Charisian model. Corisande's got at least a quiet, potential hankering after innovation to tap into, and that kind of active role in the EoC and CoC, as a participant and peer instead of as an occupied subject, should do a lot to restore and work with Corisandian national pride. Corisande could emphasize agriculture and civil engineering (fields the Royal College of Charis do not seem to be making a point of pushing) to set itself off as a genuine partner rather than a student just trying to catch up.

A third national college system in Chisholm would make sense too - it may also be something that could draw in noble sponsorship as a way to get the aristocrats pumping up their own pride and sense of importance without running contrary to the crown for once. (Compare Louis XIV drawing in French nobility to Versailles as courtiers, but make it something useful.) Emerald, Tarot, and Zebediah would likely fall into the intellectual orbits of the larger components of the EoC, but if they could establish each of them some lead in some particular field, it'd be great for their own sense of purpose too.

The Church on Safehold does too much to try to peel off too many of its functions too quickly or to risk catastrophic disintegration. But history's got a lot of models of established churches on Earth losing their religious teeth and becoming more or less simple public institutions. Duchairn and Staynair both are fine leaders for renewing the public welfare roles of the Church on either side of the schism - feeding people, teaching people, maintaining their legal systems, and delivering the groundwork for farming, animal husbandry, terraforming, and geography. The CoC particularly is well able to keep pumping up all of those and keep distancing those functions from theology.

One element of that may be less downplaying the Archangels and instead emphasizing their role as teachers rather than authorities - in effect, Bedard, Pasquale, Langhorne, Truscott, Hastings, Andropov, and Sondheim as Safehold's first therapist, doctor, lawyer, rancher, geographer, statistician, and farmer. The Writ's an excellent primer for getting life on Safehold rolling - there's no plausible way to deny that, and if you do downplay the supernatural aspects, the way is open to read them as the people beginning science and inquiry on Safehold. You just have to read them as starting the process, not as delivering the last and final word.