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Manpower shortage

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Re: Manpower shortage
Post by n7axw   » Sat Nov 01, 2014 11:07 pm

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6L6 wrote:Duchairn needs to create his own paramilitary force, "treasury agents" loyal to him. When it comes down to a contest between him and Clyntahn he can be protected.


That would be nice, but unlikely. The inqusition is already serving as "treasury agents," acting as enforcers to be sure people pay up. They won't tolerate the rise of rivals.

About the best we can hope for is a combination of the guard and perhaps Nynian's people to come sailing to the rescue before the inqusition can react...

Don
When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: Manpower shortage
Post by lyonheart   » Sun Nov 02, 2014 2:41 am

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Hi Don,

For some reason the computer ate the first iteration of this post just before I was going to send it hours ago, so I've been trying to remember it's salient points here before heading off to bed. ;)

First, Windshare doesn't have that many to start with, he only had 4,000 when he attacked BGV [at the Battle of Green Valley], and far fewer afterward.

Even assuming he built his force back up to strength under the occupation of ~30,000, 4,000 cavalry won't impress the Desnari or Harchong; let alone the ICA which already has something close to 100,000 dragoons in theater before considering casualties and replacements.

The mindset for a dragoon is quite different than a cavalryman, so it might be better to start off with someone without all that useless and even dangerous mental baggage.

The difficulties landing cavalry just for raids begs the question of what would be worth such effort, especially given it'd reveal the landing craft to be used on more critical operations.

The new weapons have created paradigm shifts in tactics that cannot be taught quickly; the new mental attitude requires lots of drilling to give the new leaders, especially of the platoon and squad the experience they need, all of which takes lots and lots of time to do it well.

If Charis were short of the manpower to watch its coasts, which I doubt, I'd suggest using Windshare's cavalry might be more useful or last longer in that role than charging on a battlefield somewhere.

The 30,000 Corisandan guards are kinda few compared to the hundreds of thousands that are needed for the ICA in Siddarmark, that are apparently already answering the call in Chisholm, Zebediah, Charis and Tarot; besides the time needed to retrain them tactically, there's the little item of winter training.

Unless the Corisandans are to be kept near the equator, they're going to need to be winterized, which requires real world winter training, ie next winter, since it's already fading this year, and will be gone by the time significant numbers of Corisandans reach the training brigades.

For those suggesting they can just raid Desnar, I'll remind them Desnar extends down to around 53 degrees south latitude, further south than the Northern Gap where BGV is right now. :D

Given the likelihood the inner circle if not the crown council before there was an inner circle discussed the possibility of coastal raids from Desnar etc, makes me think some steps have been taken, to watch and patrol the coast.

Using heliograph's etc ought permit rather cheap yet lengthy message routes than more fixed and formal semaphore towers, so considerable length's of the [primarily west] coast could be watched much more cheaply than some suppose, and while signal rockets are very obvious, they can also be seen from quite a distance, and the deterrent value might also be effective.

I also won't be surprised if some raider schooners bent on such raids suffer a mysterious mischief out of any mortal's sight so they never make it to the coast in the first place. 8-)

Having other nationalities helping in important if not critical ways in Charis ought to help bind the empire together.

L


n7axw wrote:*quote="PeterZ"*Hi, Lyonheart.

Of course Irys' Marauders will need extensive training to be true dragoons. They are highly trained cavalry already and perfect for raiding the Dohlahran coast. Arm them with revolvers, attach mortars to the group and include trained infantry that can ride and you have excellent rear area marauders. They won't fight stand up battles. They ambush and fight only forces ill equipped to deal with them. Beyond that Irys' Own will destroy infrastructure and supplies forcing the RDA to disperse to protect its enormous coastline.


*quote="lyonheart"*Hi PeterZ, Don;

Guys, again its going to take awhile to train the Corisandans, and Windshare's cavalry are definitely not dragoons, so they'll take longer to even understand the concept, given how mindless most cavalry are. ;)

Currently we have something near 360,000 ICA combat troops in theater, plus almost 400,000 RSA riflemen who should be able to deal with the MHoGatA sometime this summer, after they destroy the remnants of the AoG under Wyrshym and Kaitswyrth this month or the next; given how far south the Daivyn and Aivahstyn are [so winter is ending earlier], Symkyn should eliminate Kaitswyrth soon.

Then it will still take a couple of month's for the MHoGatA to reach the front, and who knows what the ICA may have by that time. :D

L
*quote*

Hi Lyonheart,

Actually, training the Corisandians probably would take less time than you might think. They already have the foundational skills of soldiers. Mostly it would be a matter of knocking off the rust and training them out on the new weapons.

As for Windshare's calvary, update their weapons and let them be calvary, doing raids behind enemy lines, scouting and so on. IIRC, there are only about 12,000 of them and I'm sure that they will be useful.

Don[/quote]
Any snippet or post from RFC is good if not great!
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Re: Manpower shortage
Post by Keith_w   » Sun Nov 02, 2014 8:35 am

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6L6 wrote:Duchairn needs to create his own paramilitary force, "treasury agents" loyal to him. When it comes down to a contest between him and Clyntahn he can be protected.


Nice idea, but I doubt that he would survive the attempt. Clyntahn and the inquisition would notice long before they were ready to act, see it as an act of treason and subject all those involved to the Punishment.
--
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Re: Manpower shortage
Post by Randomiser   » Sun Nov 02, 2014 9:07 am

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cralkhi wrote:
n7axw wrote:Also, the allies will need to over run Zion, whether it is done by marching on the temple from the land side or if it is done amphibiously. You simply can't leave the current temple management in place and consider the war over with. No way do the allies stop at the border between the Temple Lands and the border states. :mrgreen:

Don


Something has to happen, but maybe not an invasion; a coup by Duchairn against Clyntahn or Nynian assassinating Clyntahn might set up Duchairn to sue for peace.


In that scenario the whole dynamic would change. The currently invisible Traynair with his control of the grand vicar would come into play again. The Inquisition could no longer just browbeat everyone without a Grand Inquisitor. All the vicars outrank Rayhno and only the Council can a point a new grand vicar. Rayhno is a trusted number 2 precisely because both he and Clyntahn know he doesn't have the backing to ever be number One (there is explicit textev to that effect) So the Inquisition would be divided by various other players manoeuvring for the GI job.
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Re: Manpower shortage
Post by n7axw   » Sun Nov 02, 2014 9:27 am

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Hi Lyonheart,

Nice post and well gathered together summary.

Just a minor nit. Windshare did have about 12,000 calvary. The 4000 figure was what he actually gathered for his confrontation at Green Valley. The remainder were guarding scouting functions in the mountain passes to prevent flnking actions by Cayleb's troops.

I'm not sure that calvary is completely dated. Think of Moseby, Forrest and Sherdian in the ACW. Souting, raiding supply depots etc could still be useful things that calcary can accomplish.

Don
When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: Manpower shortage
Post by DrakBibliophile   » Sun Nov 02, 2014 10:09 am

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Nit on Rayno, IIRC I've never heard his thoughts on "lacking the backing" to become Grand Inquisitor. I thought that was Clyntahn's opinion (which could be wrong).

In the past, IMO Rayno thought Clyntahn would be better for the job than himself.

In any case, he may have Clyntahn's "secret file" (because he may have created them) so IMO while he might not become Grand Inquisitor, he would be a factor in choosing the next Grand Inquisitor, one closer to Clyntahn's views than we'd like.


Randomiser wrote:In that scenario the whole dynamic would change. The currently invisible Traynair with his control of the grand vicar would come into play again. The Inquisition could no longer just browbeat everyone without a Grand Inquisitor. All the vicars outrank Rayhno and only the Council can a point a new grand vicar. Rayhno is a trusted number 2 precisely because both he and Clyntahn know he doesn't have the backing to ever be number One (there is explicit textev to that effect) So the Inquisition would be divided by various other players manoeuvring for the GI job.
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Re: Manpower shortage
Post by PeterZ   » Sun Nov 02, 2014 10:11 am

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n7axw wrote:Hi Lyonheart,

Nice post and well gathered together summary.

Just a minor nit. Windshare did have about 12,000 calvary. The 4000 figure was what he actually gathered for his confrontation at Green Valley. The remainder were guarding scouting functions in the mountain passes to prevent flnking actions by Cayleb's troops.

I'm not sure that calvary is completely dated. Think of Moseby, Forrest and Sherdian in the ACW. Souting, raiding supply depots etc could still be useful things that calcary can accomplish.

Don


I was thinking the same thing. Also, as I recall, weren't a goodly number of Gahrvai's men cavalry? He placed Windshare in charge and used them as quick reaction forces. My question is how much dragoon training did they receive to make them more a effective quick reaction force?
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Re: Manpower shortage
Post by PeterZ   » Sun Nov 02, 2014 10:26 am

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Perhaps not create but co opt? Why does the story of the 50 ronin come to mind every time I think of Major Phandys? Between that and the depth of Nynian's business contacts which are colored in a completely different light after the SSK was revealed. How many of the guards of those businesses are well trained in combat and how many are in Zion protecting their employers?

Does the Note from Hauwyrd suggest any of this to Rohbair? We shall find out.

Keith_w wrote:
6L6 wrote:Duchairn needs to create his own paramilitary force, "treasury agents" loyal to him. When it comes down to a contest between him and Clyntahn he can be protected.


Nice idea, but I doubt that he would survive the attempt. Clyntahn and the inquisition would notice long before they were ready to act, see it as an act of treason and subject all those involved to the Punishment.
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Re: Manpower shortage
Post by 6L6   » Sun Nov 02, 2014 10:52 am

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I was thinking of a place in the text where RFC was discribing the cool reception that the inquision members recieved when they entered the areas where the treasury was housed. I think it would be easy for Duchairn to slip some arms to trusted members of his staff, amd there could always be a rat in that group.
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Re: Manpower shortage
Post by Zakharra   » Sun Nov 02, 2014 12:25 pm

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I think it's more likely one of the Gang of Four will shoot Clyntahn, or poison him then acting together as one, the three remaining members can stall the Inquisition long enough to gather support to force someone more reasonable to assume the office of head of the Inquisition.


lyonheart wrote:Hi Don,

For some reason the computer ate the first iteration of this post just before I was going to send it hours ago, so I've been trying to remember it's salient points here before heading off to bed. ;)

First, Windshare doesn't have that many to start with, he only had 4,000 when he attacked BGV [at the Battle of Green Valley], and far fewer afterward.

Even assuming he built his force back up to strength under the occupation of ~30,000, 4,000 cavalry won't impress the Desnari or Harchong; let alone the ICA which already has something close to 100,000 dragoons in theater before considering casualties and replacements.

The mindset for a dragoon is quite different than a cavalryman, so it might be better to start off with someone without all that useless and even dangerous mental baggage.

The difficulties landing cavalry just for raids begs the question of what would be worth such effort, especially given it'd reveal the landing craft to be used on more critical operations.

The new weapons have created paradigm shifts in tactics that cannot be taught quickly; the new mental attitude requires lots of drilling to give the new leaders, especially of the platoon and squad the experience they need, all of which takes lots and lots of time to do it well.

If Charis were short of the manpower to watch its coasts, which I doubt, I'd suggest using Windshare's cavalry might be more useful or last longer in that role than charging on a battlefield somewhere.

The 30,000 Corisandan guards are kinda few compared to the hundreds of thousands that are needed for the ICA in Siddarmark, that are apparently already answering the call in Chisholm, Zebediah, Charis and Tarot; besides the time needed to retrain them tactically, there's the little item of winter training.

Unless the Corisandans are to be kept near the equator, they're going to need to be winterized, which requires real world winter training, ie next winter, since it's already fading this year, and will be gone by the time significant numbers of Corisandans reach the training brigades.

For those suggesting they can just raid Desnar, I'll remind them Desnar extends down to around 53 degrees south latitude, further south than the Northern Gap where BGV is right now. :D

Given the likelihood the inner circle if not the crown council before there was an inner circle discussed the possibility of coastal raids from Desnar etc, makes me think some steps have been taken, to watch and patrol the coast.

Using heliograph's etc ought permit rather cheap yet lengthy message routes than more fixed and formal semaphore towers, so considerable length's of the [primarily west] coast could be watched much more cheaply than some suppose, and while signal rockets are very obvious, they can also be seen from quite a distance, and the deterrent value might also be effective.

I also won't be surprised if some raider schooners bent on such raids suffer a mysterious mischief out of any mortal's sight so they never make it to the coast in the first place. 8-)

Having other nationalities helping in important if not critical ways in Charis ought to help bind the empire together.

L


n7axw wrote:*quote="PeterZ"*Hi, Lyonheart.

Of course Irys' Marauders will need extensive training to be true dragoons. They are highly trained cavalry already and perfect for raiding the Dohlahran coast. Arm them with revolvers, attach mortars to the group and include trained infantry that can ride and you have excellent rear area marauders. They won't fight stand up battles. They ambush and fight only forces ill equipped to deal with them. Beyond that Irys' Own will destroy infrastructure and supplies forcing the RDA to disperse to protect its enormous coastline.


*quote="lyonheart"*Hi PeterZ, Don;

Guys, again its going to take awhile to train the Corisandans, and Windshare's cavalry are definitely not dragoons, so they'll take longer to even understand the concept, given how mindless most cavalry are. ;)

Currently we have something near 360,000 ICA combat troops in theater, plus almost 400,000 RSA riflemen who should be able to deal with the MHoGatA sometime this summer, after they destroy the remnants of the AoG under Wyrshym and Kaitswyrth this month or the next; given how far south the Daivyn and Aivahstyn are [so winter is ending earlier], Symkyn should eliminate Kaitswyrth soon.

Then it will still take a couple of month's for the MHoGatA to reach the front, and who knows what the ICA may have by that time. :D

L
*quote*

Hi Lyonheart,

Actually, training the Corisandians probably would take less time than you might think. They already have the foundational skills of soldiers. Mostly it would be a matter of knocking off the rust and training them out on the new weapons.

As for Windshare's calvary, update their weapons and let them be calvary, doing raids behind enemy lines, scouting and so on. IIRC, there are only about 12,000 of them and I'm sure that they will be useful.

Don
[/quote]

It wouldn't be any harder to turn cavalry into dragoons than it would to turn regiments of pikemen into riflemen. All it takes is training, and the cavalry would already have the most valuable training to be dragoons there is: knowing how to ride a horse. It wouldn't take more than a month or two to turn the cavalry into decent dragoons, and they would be excellent at hit and run raids, scouting and such. All you need to do is knock out the idea of massed charges with lancers or a round of swords out of the hotheaded men and get them used to the idea of modern warfare with modern weaponry and getting off their horses to attack.

A real good example of that was David Drake's 5 book General series. The Federation cavalry there were more like dragoons, getting off their mounts (giant dogs) and doing most of their fighting in ranks (single shot, rear loaded rifles) on foot, but were very mobile and had cannon and mitrailleuse (or splatguns as they called them) as artillery/fire support.
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