Official HFQ Snippet #10

I think you might rethink ski marches are more efficient than snow shoes. I think the physical properties of the snow influence which means of transport is superior. I used to have the reference at hand (but don't anymore) that discussed the use of different transport mechanisms in arctic terrain.

chickladoria wrote:I think you might rethink ski marches are more efficient than snow shoes. I think the physical properties of the snow influence which means of transport is superior. I used to have the reference at hand (but don't anymore) that discussed the use of different transport mechanisms in arctic terrain.

Snow and terrain are definite influences but the really tough one is you can't actually exert yourself in a sustained way; if you sweat enough to start sweating through your cold weather gear (or if you fall through ice into water, or you get wounded and bleed into your cold weather gear...) you're going to be a cold casualty. So the fundamental rule for this stuff is you can't push your rate of march. You also have to feed plentifully and regularly, because sustained winter marches burn a lot of food between moving and not freezing.

This is especially a case where BGV wants to avoid an actual battle if at all possible; pure maneuver warfare -- cut the supply line well back to force the Temple forces into winter maneuvers that attrit them, quite possibly decisively -- is much better than the extra casualties that can't be avoided from battles in the cold.

Graydon wrote: SNIP

Snow and terrain are definite influences but the really tough one is you can't actually exert yourself in a sustained way; if you sweat enough to start sweating through your cold weather gear (or if you fall through ice into water, or you get wounded and bleed into your cold weather gear...) you're going to be a cold casualty. So the fundamental rule for this stuff is you can't push your rate of march. You also have to feed plentifully and regularly, because sustained winter marches burn a lot of food between moving and not freezing.
SNIP

that ties in very well with this...

Captain Igloo wrote:

isaac_newton wrote:BTW does anyone have an idea of how far the snow shoe equipped troops might go on a good day on reasonable terrain? what sort of speed in mph could be sustained?

"Ski marches are the most practical form of movement during winter. In difficult terrain with a moderately deep snow cover, the Germans found that small units should not exceed two to two and one-half miles per hour, and larger units about one and one-half miles per hour. Foot troops should move about one-half mile per hour, or about one-third mile per hour when carrying loads of evacuating casualties. Unreasonable speed on skis or on foot stimulates perspiration and induces chills and frostbite."

Source: Effects of Climate on Combat Section III, Ski and Dismounted Movement

How many hours/day could be sustained for long periods - not just over a day or two? Especially given the need to be able to fight even toward the end of a days slog?

isaac_newton wrote:

XofDallas wrote:The discussion has been really good. Here's my 2 cents.



I'm going to assume the Allies will have competent engineers along to replace damaged locks (although how much time that will take is open to question). Nevertheless there will come a point where BGV's logistics, and the erosion of his mobility advantage (ended withing a month after the thaw starts) will dictate he has to stop and let things catch up with him.

I'd love to see him capture Five Forks (and its supplies) as well as Guarnak, and I think it's possible. The real question, during at least the spring and early summer, is whether he can keep what he's taken.

I imagine for lock replacement he is probably uder fairly similar constraints as Duchairn/the COGA. No mechanical diggers for excavation or transports to carry replacement parts. So he may not be able to do anything on those till the thaw...

Again, BGV stated IN LAMA that he might get to Guarnak if the was very lucky and the weather held. So it really seems to me that Guarnak is the target of his winter campaign and that these other places are not on his [immediate] horizon - for the logistical/strategic reasons people have mentioned elsewhere.

BTW does anyone have an idea of how far the snow shoe equipped troops might go on a good day on reasonable terrain? what sort of speed in mph could be sustained?

I would expect that Guarnak is BGV's immediate goal. I think that it is to BGV's advantage to take the fight to the Army of the Sylvan Gap as soon as possible since he would prefer to get that over with before the Harchongians on the Langhorne canal can move. It would be better not to have the AOG at his back and the Harchongians at his front when that scene of the drama begins.

It seems to me that the same logic applies to Symkyns facing Kaitsworth and DE and EHM dealing with what's left of the Desnairians and the Dohlarians. I, for one, have felt pretty confident about what happens when the Alliance comes to grips with the Harchongians, but it would be foolish not to wrap up business with the other COGA armies in the field and have everyone available for that confrontation. That would be just covering one's arse as well as possible.

Don

isaac_newton wrote:[snip -- don't sweat, and don't exceed relatively low rates of advance]
How many hours/day could be sustained for long periods - not just over a day or two? Especially given the need to be able to fight even toward the end of a days slog?

How much daylight do you have? It gets colder when it gets dark, and moving in the dark is more dangerous; either you use lights and make yourself immensely obvious to everyone inside the visual horizon, or you can't see where you're going in the freezing dark which leads to casualties. (You know how hyperthermia makes you irritable and angry? Hypothermia makes you dull and stupid.) With the increased axial tilt of Safehold the shortened days at increased latitude are more pronounced, too, though I don't know as we've got a specific number for the tilt or the latitudes involved. I suspect available daylight is the sharper constraint, at least at the start of the march.

You can't outrun your commissariat; it can't surge movement to catch up, because it's got the same exertion constraints you do, and you really really need regular hot food and lots of liquids to keep the troops in good shape, and the cook-tents and the sleeping tents have setup time plus animal care you'd rather not do in the entire dark. So you're committing to a very regular pattern of advance with this large force in winter conditions.

(The Scout-snipers can probably manage night movements. I wouldn't want try it with the main force unless very sharply pressed; as you break the routine, people don't get fed and start to freeze. Scout-sniper small teams on skis can probably move a lot faster, too, as long as they've got the main column to fall back on to replenish supplies.)

I'd expect that this large well-prepared force of BGV's can manage to use all the hours of true daylight, but not more than that; you'd rather use the oil for heat than light. (You're probably using it to melt snow for water and cooking, too, which will use a lot of fuel.) I'd expect something between six and eight hours of good light a day, so something like fifteen miles a day as the average main rate of advance. (Downhill days are better, uphill days are worse, brighter days better, and so on.)

So for planning purposes, I'd say 60 days is 50 days advancing (the weather will stop you sometimes; if there's a blizzard you stay put), and something like 750 marched miles.

Baron Green Valley may of course disagree with me about that.

Graydon wrote:

isaac_newton wrote:[snip -- don't sweat, and don't exceed relatively low rates of advance]
How many hours/day could be sustained for long periods - not just over a day or two? Especially given the need to be able to fight even toward the end of a days slog?

How much daylight do you have? It gets colder when it gets dark, and moving in the dark is more dangerous; either you use lights and make yourself immensely obvious to everyone inside the visual horizon, or you can't see where you're going in the freezing dark which leads to casualties. (You know how hyperthermia makes you irritable and angry? Hypothermia makes you dull and stupid.) With the increased axial tilt of Safehold the shortened days at increased latitude are more pronounced, too, though I don't know as we've got a specific number for the tilt or the latitudes involved. I suspect available daylight is the sharper constraint, at least at the start of the march.

You can't outrun your commissariat; it can't surge movement to catch up, because it's got the same exertion constraints you do, and you really really need regular hot food and lots of liquids to keep the troops in good shape, and the cook-tents and the sleeping tents have setup time plus animal care you'd rather not do in the entire dark. So you're committing to a very regular pattern of advance with this large force in winter conditions.

(The Scout-snipers can probably manage night movements. I wouldn't want try it with the main force unless very sharply pressed; as you break the routine, people don't get fed and start to freeze. Scout-sniper small teams on skis can probably move a lot faster, too, as long as they've got the main column to fall back on to replenish supplies.)

I'd expect that this large well-prepared force of BGV's can manage to use all the hours of true daylight, but not more than that; you'd rather use the oil for heat than light. (You're probably using it to melt snow for water and cooking, too, which will use a lot of fuel.) I'd expect something between six and eight hours of good light a day, so something like fifteen miles a day as the average main rate of advance. (Downhill days are better, uphill days are worse, brighter days better, and so on.)

So for planning purposes, I'd say 60 days is 50 days advancing (the weather will stop you sometimes; if there's a blizzard you stay put), and something like 750 marched miles.

Baron Green Valley may of course disagree with me about that.

Hi Graydon,

Nice post. I've had experience working outside in cold weather, feeding cattle, working construction, etc. It wasn't as consistent or quite as rigorous as what BGV's troops will experience, but still enough to know that what you've said is right on target.

Don

n7axw wrote:

Graydon wrote:[snip reasons]
So for planning purposes, I'd say 60 days is 50 days advancing (the weather will stop you sometimes; if there's a blizzard you stay put), and something like 750 marched miles.

Baron Green Valley may of course disagree with me about that.

Hi Graydon,

Nice post. I've had experience working outside in cold weather, feeding cattle, working construction, etc. It wasn't as consistent or quite as rigorous as what BGV's troops will experience, but still enough to know that what you've said is right on target.

Hi Don --

Thanks.

Back in my mis-spent youth I managed to do (for nothing like as long!) pretty much what BGV's corps is doing in the way of winter movement a couple of times. When you get outside in full-up arctic gear and you feel cold anyway, it leaves a lasting impression.

Oh, and I doubt anyone from tropical Charis thought of this first try, but the traditional fix for mittens and trigger guards is to take the trigger guard off. (Rifles designed for arctic use have a trigger guard that will reverse into the grip, so you don't lose it.)

Hi Graydon,

Thanks for the many good points.

I'm not sure about the increased axial tilt [I couldn't find it on my kindle for LaMA], but since its mid-late March, and the AoG left Lake City at the beginning of May 896 after deliberately letting the ground dry which happens to be several hundred miles north of BGV's area of operations, I expect only 30-40 days left in the local winter campaign season and 15 miles per day seems too low for BGV's advance to be worth it, 20-25 MPD seems far more likely.

Fighting a battle at the end of every day is a stretch for me, since there shouldn't be that much fighting as far as normal battles go, given how pathetically prepared the AoG's troops are in the Northland Gap apparently.

What kind of OP/LP's if any the AoG have built will be very interesting to read about relatively soon.

For many AoG soldiers shivering in the huts [sod or log] if they don't have observation posts inside the hut or cabin so they have to rotate outside except when the weather's so bad "nobody can live out there" attitude, they may not see the scout snipers approaching to smash the door and toss in a couple of grenades, possibly with an additional smoke or incendiary grenade, then finishing off any survivors with their revolvers or pistols.

The 4" rifled guns will most useful since their 1 mil accuracy means they can smash the huts and cabins from a thousand yards or more away, while the mortars are less useful against even such light structures, though the current gunpowder or 'HE' shell from the TO&E post would be more useful than the usual shrapnel until they come outside, like the artillery if they're warned in time.

The 6" angle guns don't need their great range when direct fire at a thousand or two yards is more than good enough, although if set up between camps they might engage two from near the same position.

I suspect the rest of BGV's army will follow in a week or so, since they basically only have to march not fight.

It's interesting the ICA has no high mobility in mud program, or we might have seen it when DE was slogging towards Fort Tairys, though his brigade didn't have everything it might have had fro Maikelberg.

How quickly will this snippet exceed the norm for HFQ snippets, given the apparent wait we now have in store?

L


[quote="Graydon"]*quote="isaac_newton"*
[snip -- don't sweat, and don't exceed relatively low rates of advance]
How many hours/day could be sustained for long periods - not just over a day or two? Especially given the need to be able to fight even toward the end of a days slog?*quote*

How much daylight do you have? It gets colder when it gets dark, and moving in the dark is more dangerous; either you use lights and make yourself immensely obvious to everyone inside the visual horizon, or you can't see where you're going in the freezing dark which leads to casualties. (You know how hyperthermia makes you irritable and angry? Hypothermia makes you dull and stupid.) With the increased axial tilt of Safehold the shortened days at increased latitude are more pronounced, too, though I don't know as we've got a specific number for the tilt or the latitudes involved. I suspect available daylight is the sharper constraint, at least at the start of the march.

You can't outrun your commissariat; it can't surge movement to catch up, because it's got the same exertion constraints you do, and you really really need regular hot food and lots of liquids to keep the troops in good shape, and the cook-tents and the sleeping tents have setup time plus animal care you'd rather not do in the entire dark. So you're committing to a very regular pattern of advance with this large force in winter conditions.

(The Scout-snipers can probably manage night movements. I wouldn't want try it with the main force unless very sharply pressed; as you break the routine, people don't get fed and start to freeze. Scout-sniper small teams on skis can probably move a lot faster, too, as long as they've got the main column to fall back on to replenish supplies.)

I'd expect that this large well-prepared force of BGV's can manage to use all the hours of true daylight, but not more than that; you'd rather use the oil for heat than light. (You're probably using it to melt snow for water and cooking, too, which will use a lot of fuel.) I'd expect something between six and eight hours of good light a day, so something like fifteen miles a day as the average main rate of advance. (Downhill days are better, uphill days are worse, brighter days better, and so on.)

So for planning purposes, I'd say 60 days is 50 days advancing (the weather will stop you sometimes; if there's a blizzard you stay put), and something like 750 marched miles.

Baron Green Valley may of course disagree with me about that. [/quote]

lyonheart wrote:Hi Graydon,

Thanks for the many good points.

I'm not sure about the increased axial tilt [I couldn't find it on my kindle for LaMA], but since its mid-late March, and the AoG left Lake City at the beginning of May 896 after deliberately letting the ground dry which happens to be several hundred miles north of BGV's area of operations, I expect only 30-40 days left in the local winter campaign season and 15 miles per day seems too low for BGV's advance to be worth it, 20-25 MPD seems far more likely.

Fighting a battle at the end of every day is a stretch for me, since there shouldn't be that much fighting as far as normal battles go, given how pathetically prepared the AoG's troops are in the Northland Gap apparently.

I think he meant that they have to plan to be in shape to fight an action near the end of a day, in case it occurs, not that they would be doing so regularly.

The lack of much dating within months does often make detailed assessment of the situations difficult, but I have been wondering how much winter is really left too. Obviously Charis have put a LOT of effort and money into the cold weather preparations so BGV and Higher must think it will be worth it. OTOH we can't inflate the mpd figure just to make that work out. The time available is one of the reasons that I don't think they are heading for Lake City, it looks at least 50% further than Guarnak. 'Slamming the door behind Wyrshym' by getting just north of Guarnak makes perfect sense to me.

Graydon wrote:

How much daylight do you have? It gets colder when it gets dark, and moving in the dark is more dangerous;

Cloud cover is more dramatic than dark. Clear is colder, overcast is not so cold. BGV and his Army can move at will with the equipment described. Rolling and rotating kitchens, Breaks and no forced marches. As textev states he has sleds for their packs probably pulled by Reindeer or Ice Lizards. Great winter uniforms that take advantage of layering. There would be travel every hour from dawn to dusk. AND don't forget the Moons - additional travel time for select groups

either you use lights and make yourself immensely obvious to everyone inside the visual horizon, or you can't see where you're going in the freezing dark which leads to casualties.

Field craft dictates that you can set up Tents at dusk and lights & cooking are carefully concealed inside these double wall tents preserving the guards night vision and providing a warmer environment.

SNIP

You can't outrun your commissariat; it can't surge movement to catch up, because it's got the same exertion constraints you do, and you really really need regular hot food and lots of liquids to keep the troops in good shape, and the cook-tents and the sleeping tents have setup time plus animal care you'd rather not do in the entire dark.

No argument there but the Chuck-sleds with the Reindeer pulling them will make better time than the troop. They will be a rolling group getting out in front (but behind the Recon) setting up providing service and packing up and rolling past the active commissary serving the men.

So you're committing to a very regular pattern of advance with this large force in winter conditions.

I truely believe 100 miles in a fiveday to be sustainable until you get close to action. These troop are not loaded down, are well equiped and trained. Dragoons are capable of covering a lot of space while keeping ahead of the main body. This is open Territory and there has been no indication of populace or OPs.

I figure BGV is 6 fivedays from Olharn including the short time to take St Zhana. I am an optomist but I also believe a well equiped and lead army can do incredible things.

I am currently at 70 degrees north latitude and have an understanding of Artic weather. This can be done (in this fictional RFC world)

So for planning purposes, I'd say 60 days is 50 days advancing (the weather will stop you sometimes; if there's a blizzard you stay put), and something like 750 marched miles.

You are putting 12 fivedays for 750 miles - am at 6 fivedays for 600 miles (I think they are laess than a fiveday to St Zhana.
Probably in between somewhere

Baron Green Valley may of course disagree with me about that.

Oh yeah