Ebola Virus

Northstar wrote:Speaking of E. Reston, they keep saying E Zaire is very unlikely to mutate to airborne ... and I really really hope they are correct on that point ... but E. Reston is thought to have come from Africa to the Philippines - via people or critters to a game park or who knows how - and hence to Reston, VA and somewhere along the way it figured out how to go airborne.

From what I've read, I don't think Ebola Reston is airborne - at least, no evidence of it. There was some non-contact between monkeys, but that was probably flung poop or aerosolized by pressure-washing the cages or something.

And, as is eerily pointed out in The Hot Zone,

That book is way over-dramatized and not at all reliable.

I'm taking their word for it about not contagious before high fever etc, but reality is these folks sashaying around have cost various businesses millions and may ruin some. Right or wrong. Rational or not, that is what is indeed a really bad outcome for a bridal shop, a bowling alley, an airline, a cruise ship... on and on. Relatives stuck in quarantine and what sort of thing do they face when let out? Probably not fun. Inflicting this sort of thing on others is rude, to say the least.

Agreed!!!!

And if the government does not want to have folks dodging their pseudo-quarentine procedures, they need to compensate people for real financial losses. Of course that would take competence on their part, which has been in short supply to date.

As to that. It is unfortunate that nurse arriving in New Jersey was treated with profound rudeness, snottiness and an utter disregard for civil liberties or simple human decency. Courtesy and respect are simple and free, for cripe's sake. There is no excuse for the awful way she has been treated. You want a government who feels free to do that to you???? No??? Then do not excuse it being done to her. Most of the responses to her essay in The Dallas Daily News this morning are atrocious.

Agreed!!!!

I doubt there is some big conspiracy, but there for sure is a lot of nasty behavior on the part of individuals who had zero need to behave like that. And there for sure is a lot of incompetency on all levels and that is fueling folk's fear and mistrust. It just is.

Agreed!!!!

The incompetence has been horrendous. Oddly enough this new Ebola Czar may help. He's an expert in getting things done in Washington not a Dr., so the media hates him. But we really don't need a Dr. in charge, we need someone who LISTENS to the doctors and gets them what they need. He may actually be able to do that as well as improve the abysmal communication strategy that has been contributing to this mess.

This morning I've heard some vague references to health workers refusing to go to work in New York because they do not trust the CDC prtocols. I don't blame them. The difference between how staff dress in the level 4 hospital set ups and how they say it is ok for other health workers to dress is very very large. Look at the pix. The level 4 folks are in full biohazard suits with hosed in air, as in that old flick, The Andromeda Strain. Or more recent bio horror flicks. They shower in chem germicides for several minutes before taking off the suit. But it is ok for Nurse Nancy at Bellevue or Dallas to just carefully take off her outfit. Really? This sort of thing is what is fueling the distrust and fear.

Lurid conspiracy? Probably not. Vast incompetence? Mmmm looks like it, doc.

I also don't blame the nurses. Admittedly, Ebola is very difficult to transmit. Let's face it if it was easy to transmit we'd have 10 million (+) dead not 10,000 dead in West Africa. But when the people who are saying don't worry are dressed in space suits, it's a little hard to take them seriously.

Plus if they actually show up and do work with an Ebola patient, they'll find themselves treated like Biblical lepers and stuck in this pseudo-quarantine with no compensation!

cralkhi wrote:

Northstar wrote:Speaking of E. Reston, they keep saying E Zaire is very unlikely to mutate to airborne ... and I really really hope they are correct on that point ... but E. Reston is thought to have come from Africa to the Philippines - via people or critters to a game park or who knows how - and hence to Reston, VA and somewhere along the way it figured out how to go airborne.

From what I've read, I don't think Ebola Reston is airborne - at least, no evidence of it. There was some non-contact between monkeys, but that was probably flung poop or aerosolized by pressure-washing the cages or something.

And, as is eerily pointed out in The Hot Zone,

That book is way over-dramatized and not at all reliable.

I agree with you The Hot Zone is prone to dramatic effect and have so stated elsewhere in this thread. There are other books out there, I think I named a few in other posts on this thread, that have more sanguine or contrasting perspectives. Some of which are related in The Hot Zone itself, to be fair to Mr Preston. Namely some of the CDC people are stated as having very different views on Ebola infectiousness. That is stated clearly in THZ. And then he goes for the drama again, true. But just perhaps those are the genuine opinions of the persons he was interviewing.

Scientists and doctors, of course, never ever disagree with each other about anything. Nor accuse one another of melodrama or being stubborn dorks or blind twits or anything like that. No, never... uhhuh

IIRC, I've read elsewhere that E Reston can go airborne is not in dispute. It did a bit more than get passed among a few monkeys. It was in several rooms. It killed in at least a couple well separated rooms in the initial outbreak. After the initial outbreak and cleaning they imported more monkeys, who got it and this time they let the infection burn through the population. It killed them all throughout the building. Did you read the book? Not just it, of course, but have you read it? Opinions may vary among assorted sincere and even expert persons also. eh. It did go all through that building. That said, nowhere have I claimed to be a med expert, not remotely. I've said I am not. But I do try to repeat what I've read as accurately as my memory allows. For what that is worth. People here are smart and know how to go look things up for themselves or reason them out for themselves. Something I heartily encourage.

In other items.

The rumor about the cases of folks' calling in sick at Bellevue is repeated in The New York Post among other places when I googled it. I had heard it on tv news this morning. CNN, IIRC. Could have been MSNBC or Fox. I channel surfed them all then. The NY POST also states authorities deny the story. eh. I'm not taking attendance at Bellevue so I have no way of knowing.

But what I said remains. If it is happening I do not blame them. A couple hundred healthcare workers in Africa are dead and a couple Spanish priests. Various Western health people, and others like a cameraman, have been infected there and cannot say when or how so there was no obvious breech of protocol to which they can say, 'yep, I got a cut through my gloves' or whatever. This is a cause for concern among health workers.

And should be. Concern, not panic or hysteria or witch hunts. Those help nothing. Likewise, government poopooing, condescension and ever changing stories, proclamations, assertions and guidelines are not helping.

I have stated I'm not worried about Ebola here. I am kinda fretty about it getting loose in Rio, or Karachi, or other huge teeming overcrowded cities with large slums and not good health care for the residents of those slums. That could be a difficult problem.

And... Biochem, thanks. And I agree with you completely about these people being compensated fully and fairly... and while they're at that, they should be treated with courtesy, dignity and respect. To do otherwise is just vile.

Northstar wrote:IIRC, I've read elsewhere that E Reston can go airborne is not in dispute.

This is where I got that from:

http://scienceblogs.com/aetiology/2014/ ... -of-ebola/

"the “evidence” for this potential airborne spread is really thin, and not even indicative of animal-to-animal or animal-to-person transmission."

cralkhi wrote:

Northstar wrote:IIRC, I've read elsewhere that E Reston can go airborne is not in dispute.

This is where I got that from:

http://scienceblogs.com/aetiology/2014/ ... -of-ebola/

"the “evidence” for this potential airborne spread is really thin, and not even indicative of animal-to-animal or animal-to-person transmission."

That is an interesting and excellent counterbalancing article. Thank you for it. She makes some excellent points, some of which I've also said here on this thread.

Look, I do not have a need to particularly defend Mr Preston, nor to vilify him.

There were some squishy words in her article, though. Yes, things could have been spread by other means. God knows I hope they were. I mean really. She herself notes he does present many cases and instances when things are not all that contagious. It is there in the text.

Personally, I tend to dismiss melodramatic purple prose as I go in any book. I also note the propensity for scientists to disagree in rather heated ways. Truth is often in the boring middle between the fusillades of invective and dramatic assertions.

And she makes an excellent point he does not discuss in any detail the home life of anyone but Nancy Jaax. Perhaps because to him she is his main character. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt on that one. I guess I saw it more as just the tough realities of trying to balance a demanding career and a home life. I try not to see MCPs in every remark about women made by males. It gets old... and exhausting.... and boring.

May I suggest Level 4: Virus Hunters of the CDC by Joe McCormick and Susan Fisher-Hoch? That is the Joe McCormick who appears in the THZ text from the CDC who disagrees strongly on the contagiousness of Ebola. Personally, I never read one author's opinion or book. I always read several. To get various points of view.

I note you do not say you've read THZ. It certainly should not be the only book one reads on the subject, not at all. But it is the reference most people will relate to and are most likely to have read. eh. If one is going to trash it, one should read it first. YMMV

NORTHSTAR WROTE

Personally, I tend to dismiss melodramatic purple prose as I go in any book. I also note the propensity for scientists to disagree in rather heated ways. Truth is often in the boring middle between the fusillades of invective and dramatic assertions.

Personally, I never read one author's opinion or book. I always read several. To get various points of view.

That is one advantage of learning speed reading. It isn't that hard but does take persistent practice. Which might be why so few do learn it

Worth Reading:

http://humanevents.com/2014/10/29/the-s ... e-workers/

http://townhall.com/columnists/michaelr ... ampaign=nl

I'm seeing more and more calls for quarantine. I'm actually in favor of quarantine. It is a time honored proven to work infection control method. However for it to work, people must choose to comply with it. There are 2 basic ways to do this, the carrot (reward driven) or the stick (force or punishment driven). In most cases a combination of carrot/stick works the best. To date I've seen a lot of stick and precious little carrot.

biochem wrote:
I'm seeing more and more calls for quarantine. I'm actually in favor of quarantine. It is a time honored proven to work infection control method. However for it to work, people must choose to comply with it. There are 2 basic ways to do this, the carrot (reward driven) or the stick (force or punishment driven). In most cases a combination of carrot/stick works the best. To date I've seen a lot of stick and precious little carrot.

Could these be literally excellent vehicles to effect quarantine?

http://www.mercyships.org/who-we-are/ou ... ica-mercy/

DDHv wrote:

NORTHSTAR WROTE

Personally, I tend to dismiss melodramatic purple prose as I go in any book. I also note the propensity for scientists to disagree in rather heated ways. Truth is often in the boring middle between the fusillades of invective and dramatic assertions.

Personally, I never read one author's opinion or book. I always read several. To get various points of view.

That is one advantage of learning speed reading. It isn't that hard but does take persistent practice. Which might be why so few do learn it

Worth Reading:

http://humanevents.com/2014/10/29/the-s ... e-workers/

Interesting article, which -among other things- makes a point I've noted; medical people who are being careful in their practices and following the guidelines still get sick with it. The staffs at places like Emory work in quite different gear from that put on field personnel, namely full spacesuits with independent hosed in air supply. Why are field people not in Rocal suits? I'm sure it is mainly cost.

What bothers me the most is the contrast in disinfecting gear before it is removed. Nothing or very little in field personnel vs full disinfectant shower for many minutes in level 4 containment facilities. This seems, to my mommy clean sense, to be a point of deep and dangerous vulnerability that mystifies me. Pour a bottle of vinegar over them, at least. Won't hurt, may help a lot. Spray lysol, spray hydrogen peroxide, spray bleach water. Something, anything.

It makes several other points about how reliable or not fever is and how reliable healthworkers are in reporting themselves in as sick, but does not address the issue of infectability before the virus has had time to amplify enough to be causing vomiting etc. That is the key point: just how contagious are people before the onset of strongly noticeable symptoms? The CDC says hardly at all. And the fact Mr Duncan's family members and fiance etc are all alive and well backs up that view.

There is another article on there about Ebola, by Ann Coulter, which is frankly fraught with errors when she alludes to AIDS. Every het person who got AIDS was not and is not a druggie. Many were hemophiliacs and many others got it from contaminated blood transfusions, not to mention the ones who have gotten it from sex. She is so ignorant and just plain wrong on that subject I cannot trust a word she says on Ebola, though I do agree with her the Media -of all political persuasions, I add, though she did not- have been hair on fire on the subject. And since this website published her error fraught article... Well, who knows the accuracy of this article. eh. Caveat emptor applies to all sources of info on anything, of course. Including my posts.

biochem wrote:I'm seeing more and more calls for quarantine. I'm actually in favor of quarantine. It is a time honored proven to work infection control method. However for it to work, people must choose to comply with it. There are 2 basic ways to do this, the carrot (reward driven) or the stick (force or punishment driven). In most cases a combination of carrot/stick works the best. To date I've seen a lot of stick and precious little carrot.

The policy also needs to be consistent, which it is not remotely at the moment. Example, the staff caring for the doctor patient in Bellevue now are not themselves under quarantine ,even though they are caring for a very ill Ebola patient. There are many dozens and dozens of folks coming back and forth from West Africa who have been working with Ebola cases up close and personal. Only the one nurse is being harassed on the subject. Others are let in unmolested and let go about their lives unmolested. Why this one woman gets picked to be publicly abused...

Now, I personally think she should quarantine herself and so should all the rest of them, call me cautious, but I understand her dander is up now. She is being singled out and that is patently unfair and unjust.

I am also fairly appalled at this practice of health workers going over there for a few weeks and coming back, dozens and dozens of them going on these Ebola work abroad short trips. This... the more people the bigger the chances of something going very wrong. How about paying a lot fewer to stay for the duration instead of all this in and out short term stuff???

The short term stuff also means a constant renewal of inexperienced people over there rather than ones used to working with Ebola. This does not serve the sick people over there as well as experienced staff would.

The whole thing just comes off as slipshod, pasted together and haphazard, which is very very troubling.