(SPOILERS) Dialydd's report

alj_sf wrote:

PeterZ wrote:Sorry, Don, but tell that to the Glacierheart captain serving under Colonel Byrk forgot-his-last-name of the Glacietheart volunteers. Saw his entire family defiled in the most disgusting ways and had to put their bodies to rest. It wasn't the inquisition that did that. The perpetrators were simple Temple Loyalists. Killing every Inquisitors will do nothing for Cpt. Wallace.

I think you are projecting a largely Charisian view on Siddermarkians. There are much more Siddermakians than Charisians and they will deal with loyalist mainlanders more than their allies.

On the other hand, look what happened in EU after WWII. It took only 25 Years to settle things at comfortable level between Germans and other nations. There was still a few holdovers on each side (hatred and zealotry are hard to shake out), but as newer generations come in, and the reasons for hate disappear, things got better.

There is probably today a warmer feeling toward Germans in France than toward our much longer rival, England.

Germans, yes. Nazis have become the epitome of evil. That has not changed at all...well perhaps it has gotten worse. This is especially true among Jews.

I also believe you have forgotten the Balkans. That is a much more apt comparison. The ruling class changed and the predominant religion changed many times. Each time a new regime came to power, those in power abused their authority. Now the term balkanize is synonymous with breaking apart.

That's what is in store for Siddermark absent a reconciliation moment. Turning something as large as Siddermark into the Balkans writ large is not conducive to defeating the Gbaba.

Hi Peter,

That's an excellent point. To develop it a bit further, hatred with a religious core seems to burn hotter and more deeply than other kinds. That business in the Balkans has been going on for 400 years.

The place where the analogy breaks down, though, is that there is an ugly mix of ethnic and tribal stuff going on in the Balkans that predates even the religious stuff. That part of the witches brew Siddarmark lacks.

Don

PeterZ wrote:Germans, yes. Nazis have become the epitome of evil. That has not changed at all...well perhaps it has gotten worse. This is especially true among Jews.

I also believe you have forgotten the Balkans. That is a much more apt comparison. The ruling class changed and the predominant religion changed many times. Each time a new regime came to power, those in power abused their authority. Now the term balkanize is synonymous with breaking apart.

That's what is in store for Siddermark absent a reconciliation moment. Turning something as large as Siddermark into the Balkans writ large is not conducive to defeating the Gbaba.

Balkans is a clannish area and it is what fuel the hate. One of my friends had relocated himself here in France from Zagreb because of a revenge killing feud that had been running for more than a century and from what he said, it was not even exceptional. And Croatia is not the place in Balkans where clans or ethnic groups have most influence.

The point about Germans vs Nazis is apt, temple zealots with blood on their hands will probably be hunted, those without can hope to reconciliate in time.

n7axw wrote:Hi Peter,

That's an excellent point. To develop it a bit further, hatred with a religious core seems to burn hotter and more deeply than other kinds. That business in the Balkans has been going on for 400 years.

The place where the analogy breaks down, though, is that there is an ugly mix of ethnic and tribal stuff going on in the Balkans that predates even the religious stuff. That part of the witches brew Siddarmark lacks.

Don

I am not so sure. There was definitely clannish overtones in the combat during the first winter. That might be more pronounced in Glacierheart than elsewhere. We don't know if clannishness developed elsewhere. We also don't know if other distinctions haven't developed. Guild snobbery, townie vs. Farmer or who knows what. Whatever divisions that do exist can be exacerbated by a festering religious schism.

Bottom line is a generation or four won't be enough to heal those wounds unless the two church heirarchies reconcile to some degree. The Return might spark such a reconciliation. That or Nynian deciding Merlin is mistaken and fights an honorable war on the CoGA side after Clyntahn dies. Enough time fighting a war that fully respects the humanity of the other side would lead recognizing some compromise that beats killing each other.

PeterZ wrote:

n7axw wrote:Hi Peter,

That's an excellent point. To develop it a bit further, hatred with a religious core seems to burn hotter and more deeply than other kinds. That business in the Balkans has been going on for 400 years.

The place where the analogy breaks down, though, is that there is an ugly mix of ethnic and tribal stuff going on in the Balkans that predates even the religious stuff. That part of the witches brew Siddarmark lacks.

Don

I am not so sure. There was definitely clannish overtones in the combat during the first winter. That might be more pronounced in Glacierheart than elsewhere. We don't know if clannishness developed elsewhere. We also don't know if other distinctions haven't developed. Guild snobbery, townie vs. Farmer or who knows what. Whatever divisions that do exist can be exacerbated by a festering religious schism.

Bottom line is a generation or four won't be enough to heal those wounds unless the two church heirarchies reconcile to some degree. The Return might spark such a reconciliation. That or Nynian deciding Merlin is mistaken and fights an honorable war on the CoGA side after Clyntahn dies. Enough time fighting a war that fully respects the humanity of the other side would lead recognizing some compromise that beats killing each other.

Hi PeterZ,
Q
I got to thinking about that feud after my last post on the subject and you are right about the clan hatred of the mountaineers.

I just don't see your scenario playing out that way. As for Nynian, I don't see her in support of the COGA no matter how her reaction to the truth might play out. She is already well accustomed to the notion of a story line other than the church's and she knows the church lies. That won't change. Add into that that her hatred is just as deep as Wahlys Mahkhom's and although it's focused on Clyntahn at the moment, it certainly doesn't stop there.

For people on both sides to start seeing each other as human beings again, the war has to be concluded. Then you might be able to implement some sort of truth courts like Desmond Tutu's or at least war crimes trials where justice is measured rather than just being revenge.

Don

n7axw wrote:Hi PeterZ,
Q
I got to thinking about that feud after my last post on the subject and you are right about the clan hatred of the mountaineers.

I just don't see your scenario playing out that way. As for Nynian, I don't see her in support of the COGA no matter how her reaction to the truth might play out. She is already well accustomed to the notion of a story line other than the church's and she knows the church lies. That won't change. Add into that that her hatred is just as deep as Wahlys Mahkhom's and although it's focused on Clyntahn at the moment, it certainly doesn't stop there.

For people on both sides to start seeing each other as human beings again, the war has to be concluded. Then you might be able to implement some sort of truth courts like Desmond Tutu's or at least war crimes trials where justice is measured rather than just being revenge.

Don

If you recall, Don, I postulated that Nynian's becoming a Theismanesque character was one way to bring a rapprochement. There are undoubtedly others.

Regarding Nynian's beliefs, we know very little about those. All we know for sure is that she believes strongly in the Church's responsibilities to human beings. We know that she has stated her belief in a God that is active in human affairs or at least can be active in human affairs. We know that her organization is a religious one at its founding. We know that they still recruit from church families that send their children for religious instruction.

We do not know if she hates the church as an organization only that she hates those that abuse their authority. We do not know how she feels about forgiveness. She may forgive Duchairn if she recognizes his resurgence of faith. We do not know if she is one of those that believe that mankind indeed came from elsewhere. Even if she does, we do not know the nature of that elsewhere she believe mankind came from. That believe might or might not strengthen her belief in the God behind the Writ. That belief might not be easily reconciled with Merlin's history. Eventually after the Awakening, sure. Now in the midst of war? maybe not.

It isn't a slam dunk, Don. There are many very interesting ways to write this up and RFC will choose one that tells the story best. I honestly don't know how this one will shape up. I usually can piece together RFC's hints well. This one is REALLY well disguised. Bravo, David!

PeterZ wrote:

n7axw wrote:Hi PeterZ,
Q
I got to thinking about that feud after my last post on the subject and you are right about the clan hatred of the mountaineers.

I just don't see your scenario playing out that way. As for Nynian, I don't see her in support of the COGA no matter how her reaction to the truth might play out. She is already well accustomed to the notion of a story line other than the church's and she knows the church lies. That won't change. Add into that that her hatred is just as deep as Wahlys Mahkhom's and although it's focused on Clyntahn at the moment, it certainly doesn't stop there.

For people on both sides to start seeing each other as human beings again, the war has to be concluded. Then you might be able to implement some sort of truth courts like Desmond Tutu's or at least war crimes trials where justice is measured rather than just being revenge.

Don

If you recall, Don, I postulated that Nynian's becoming a Theismanesque character was one way to bring a rapprochement. There are undoubtedly others.

Regarding Nynian's beliefs, we know very little about those. All we know for sure is that she believes strongly in the Church's responsibilities to human beings. We know that she has stated her belief in a God that is active in human affairs or at least can be active in human affairs. We know that her organization is a religious one at its founding. We know that they still recruit from church families that send their children for religious instruction.

We do not know if she hates the church as an organization only that she hates those that abuse their authority. We do not know how she feels about forgiveness. She may forgive Duchairn if she recognizes his resurgence of faith. We do not know if she is one of those that believe that mankind indeed came from elsewhere. Even if she does, we do not know the nature of that elsewhere she believe mankind came from. That believe might or might not strengthen her belief in the God behind the Writ. That belief might not be easily reconciled with Merlin's history. Eventually after the Awakening, sure. Now in the midst of war? maybe not.

It isn't a slam dunk, Don. There are many very interesting ways to write this up and RFC will choose one that tells the story best. I honestly don't know how this one will shape up. I usually can piece together RFC's hints well. This one is REALLY well disguised. Bravo, David!

Hi Peter

No. We don't know everything about her. But we do know that she is accustomed to the notion of a story line apart from the church's which in turn implies a certain flexibility of mind. She appears to me to be at least as good of candidate for the inner circle as Father Paityr. But well, I suspect we will have to agree to disagree on this one and wait until David unveils what is going to happen.

Don

=2014/10/26=

Maybe not elsewhere in Siddarkark, but the Raven Lords have certainly been described as "clan-like"

R
.

PeterZ wrote:[SNIP]

I am not so sure. There was definitely clannish overtones in the combat during the first winter. That might be more pronounced in Glacierheart than elsewhere. We don't know if clannishness developed elsewhere. We also don't know if other distinctions haven't developed. Guild snobbery, townie vs. Farmer or who knows what. Whatever divisions that do exist can be exacerbated by a festering religious schism.

Bottom line is a generation or four won't be enough to heal those wounds unless the two church heirarchies reconcile to some degree. The Return might spark such a reconciliation. That or Nynian deciding Merlin is mistaken and fights an honorable war on the CoGA side after Clyntahn dies. Enough time fighting a war that fully respects the humanity of the other side would lead recognizing some compromise that beats killing each other.

kbus888 wrote:=2014/10/26=

Maybe not elsewhere in Siddarkark, but the Raven Lords have certainly been described as "clan-like"

R
.

PeterZ wrote:[SNIP]

I am not so sure. There was definitely clannish overtones in the combat during the first winter. That might be more pronounced in Glacierheart than elsewhere. We don't know if clannishness developed elsewhere. We also don't know if other distinctions haven't developed. Guild snobbery, townie vs. Farmer or who knows what. Whatever divisions that do exist can be exacerbated by a festering religious schism.

Bottom line is a generation or four won't be enough to heal those wounds unless the two church heirarchies reconcile to some degree. The Return might spark such a reconciliation. That or Nynian deciding Merlin is mistaken and fights an honorable war on the CoGA side after Clyntahn dies. Enough time fighting a war that fully respects the humanity of the other side would lead recognizing some compromise that beats killing each other.

So far we have seen clans in more isolated areas like the Raven Lands or Glacierhart's nountaineers, but we haven't seen tribes. I find myself wondering if this doesn't have to do with tha artificial way Safehold's society was set up.

Don

Don,

I suspect the lack of tribes is a function of the disintegration of Safehold humanity's belief of a common genesis. Man was truly created equal on Safehold. The Testemonies prove this. What follows are chapter after chapter in their history of Safeholdians emphasizing their differences rather than reveling in their common Divine genesis.

I suspect clannishness as an adaptation of how to prioritize who to help in difficult times. Given limited resources, help family first and strangers after securing the family's prospects.

Tribalism would have been helpful in integration humanity into larger groups. That stage would come in as groups of clans collected to share resources. Creation had already established larger social structures that allowed for sharing resources. There would be no need for tribes baring the complete disintegration of all society.