Ebola Virus

Ebola doctor infected of Ebola in New York. Traveling back to New York from West Africa. They have retraced his steps ... which included the subway.

First; as a young kid, I remember my older sister and younger brother and me being quarantined because we had the measles. Might also have been the mumps; been too long ago for me to remember. Then the mean family doctor made a house call and shot all three of us in the butt with a big needle! It hurt!

I do remember the big 8.5 inch by 11 inch bright yellow QUARANTINE NOTICE that was taped to our front door. I was not really scared. I do not really remember much about the whole thing. Also ... we all know alcohol also prevents scurvy but only if you mix Vitamin C crystals to that perfect booze.

You should use rum cut to three parts water and one part pure cheap rum along with the aforementioned vitamin C crystals because when you then drink lots of the grog ... it makes you ... groggy. And that is your science lesson for today. HB of CJ (old coot) Cm. A retired Registered Nurse so there!

Northstar wrote:

biochem wrote:An effective quarantine needs to have people willing to follow it or they'll just conceal the fact that they've been there and we'll have real trouble.

This is what I'd do were I Obama.

1. Direct flights to West Africa leaving from Atlanta. People on those flights will be required to arrive 3 days in advance for hands on training at the CDC. Training will consist of learning to protect oneself from Ebola using equipment actually available in West Africa. Training will be hands on not just videos and ppt presentations. It takes practice to learn to put gloves on and off safely etc. Training will be free courtesy of the US government.

2. Travel to afflicted west african nations will be banned except for Doctors, nurses, Christian aid workers, NGO aid workers, and those with family members in the afflicted countries. (Basically the type of people you'd expect to evade a travel ban anyway. We need to know that they are going so we can monitor them on their return.)

3. Entry into the US from West Africa will be followed by a 21 day quarantine period. Use a decommissioned military base that hasn't been repurposed yet for quarantine housing. Preferably close to Atlanta if one is available there.

A. Job protection during quarantine. i.e. your employer can't lay you off for entering quarantine.

B. Financial protection for all losses suffered as a result of being in quarantine: lost wages etc. Plus a bonus equivalent to an extra 50% of the lost wages. Basically pay people to do it. For those without lost wages (some of those Christian aid workers for example) pay them a flat $ amount TBD.

C. Cable, internet connection, e readers etc to keep people from being so bored they sneak off.

D. Now the stick - Failure to enter quarantine after visiting a afflicted country is punishable by up to 20 years in prison.

All completely sensible and well reasoned.

But since when under what government has the US ever been sensible about this sort of thing?

There is a Churchill quote to the effect that the US Government will always do the right thing... after it has exhausted all other possible actions. alas, too true.

They have take a teeny tiny baby step an are now requiring persons coming into the US from Liberia, Guinea and Sierra Leone to monitor their temp twice a day and report to the government about it every day for 21 says. Not sure how they are going to verify the truth of the answers but.. sigh.

A comment re government capability in this:

http://personalliberty.com/will-submit- ... law-heres/

DDHv wrote:
A comment re government capability in this:

http://personalliberty.com/will-submit- ... law-heres/

I never said the government was capable, as in competent.

But there is an old saying to the effect 'Be slow to ascribe to malice what can be explained by incompetence.'

Here is something to ponder. I do not know the answer, btw.

Supposedly Ebola is not capable of surviving as a dried particle, this is the capacity that allows things like measles and smallpox -or the common cold or influenza- to be so horridly contagious airborne and just sitting around on the ground, doorknobs, countertops, keyboards, furniture, floating in the air and on the wind, whatever for hours, days, weeks sometimes.

Ok fine. But if that is true, that Ebola cannot live outside a moist warm protected body fluids environment, then why are they going in and decontaminating Ebola patients' homes and incinerating all their stuff? No one is going to be in there for at least a couple weeks. So any virus would be long dead and there would be no need for anyone to go in there in hazmat suits and ruin all their stuff.

This is a large contradiction between what they are saying and what they are doing.

Answer? I have no notion. But... they did that in The Hot Zone also, zapped the place so thoroughly that nothing lived in it anymore. Nothing. Of course, that was E. Reston, which had proved itself to be capable of being airborne.

The mystery contradiction remains. I have heard no explanation, nor any reporter asking them about this point, which just goes to show how... inattentive reporters are.

Speaking of E. Reston, they keep saying E Zaire is very unlikely to mutate to airborne ... and I really really hope they are correct on that point ... but E. Reston is thought to have come from Africa to the Philippines - via people or critters to a game park or who knows how - and hence to Reston, VA and somewhere along the way it figured out how to go airborne. And was devastatingly lethal to monkeys. And, as is eerily pointed out in The Hot Zone, E. Reston is so genetically close to E. Zaire that the Maringa sample of E. Zaire at USAMRIID reacted positive to the sample of what proved to be E. Reston, much stronger than either the E. Sudan or Marburg samples did

That being the case, how can they be so certain E Zaire will not do this? Gee, I hope they are correct about that. Hmmm.

Well, watch Africa. If E Zaire goes airborne it will be obvious because it will escalate frighteningly beyond the current already scary rate of transmission there. May this never, ever, happen.

I am not qualified to comment one way or the other on the competency of folks at the CDC etc. But I think I am allowed to notice contradictions and odd inconsistencies.

Cheers.

From an earlier poster's remark:

Try that rum - I like Barbados for this - with a bit of butter and a dash of maple syrup in apple cider - the real stuff not the fake crap. Heat gently. Yum Apple grog on a cold night.

Happy Halloween all.

And edited by moi trying to clarify a couple. points better

cthia wrote:Ebola doctor infected of Ebola in New York. Traveling back to New York from West Africa. They have retraced his steps ... which included the subway.

What is it with certain persons who know they have been working with Very ill Ebola patients who then traipse over to visit people they love and go out and about on public close quarters transportation -planes, subways- and into places many people gather like bowling alleys, bridal shops, restaurants? I cringe at the very idea of risking such a thing. I do not understand the level of whatever it is that has some people doing these things.

Nor do I understand the hissy fit some medical persons are displaying at the notion they might want to quarantine themselves after working with very ill Ebola patients, just to be sure they do not have it before they go out and about here. Well, if I have to be quarantined then I won't go over to Africa, so there.

Thoughtless is the kindest spin I can put on it. They can destroy people's businesses with this if they turn up sick, not to mention risk infecting their friends and family or -more likely- get them stuck in quarantine. Such a nice thing to inflict on other people.

It is indeed noble and brave to go fight Ebola in Africa or right here, keep up the nobility for a while back home, please. eh.

Edited by moi for clarity, I hope.

HB of CJ wrote:First; as a young kid, I remember my older sister and younger brother and me being quarantined because we had the measles. Might also have been the mumps; been too long ago for me to remember. Then the mean family doctor made a house call and shot all three of us in the butt with a big needle! It hurt!

I do remember the big 8.5 inch by 11 inch bright yellow QUARANTINE NOTICE that was taped to our front door. I was not really scared. I do not really remember much about the whole thing. Also ... we all know alcohol also prevents scurvy but only if you mix Vitamin C crystals to that perfect booze.

You should use rum cut to three parts water and one part pure cheap rum along with the aforementioned vitamin C crystals because when you then drink lots of the grog ... it makes you ... groggy. And that is your science lesson for today. HB of CJ (old coot) Cm. A retired Registered Nurse so there!

In Britain they have been known to use whiskey to cure resistant infections... dancing the line between drunk and alcohol poisoning to do this in a hospital when all else has failed. It has been known to work.

I remember having measles in the second grade. Horrid. Laying in a darkened room for a couple weeks. I won't go into details. Not pleasant. Very very ill. Oatmeal baths and dustings with fine ground oatmeal for the rash. 1957.

A mix of standard protocol and paranois for just in case i guess. better to do and not have needed than not have done and needed to have after all. say there is a small condensation or mould due to a moist house environment, and ebola cells manage to survive there. this protocol prevents this, and also any mutations that mayu not need mositure, and kill any other infections as well.

Northstar wrote:

DDHv wrote:
A comment re government capability in this:

http://personalliberty.com/will-submit- ... law-heres/

I never said the government was capable, as in competent.

But there is an old saying to the effect 'Be slow to ascribe to malice what can be explained by incompetence.'

Here is something to ponder. I do not know the answer, btw.

Supposedly Ebola is not capable of surviving as a dried particle, this is the capacity that allows things like measles and smallpox -or the common cold or influenza- to be so horridly contagious airborne and just sitting around on the ground, doorknobs, countertops, keyboards, furniture, floating in the air and on the wind, whatever for hours, days, weeks sometimes.

Ok fine. But if that is true, that Ebola cannot live outside a moist warm protected body fluids environment, then why are they going in and decontaminating Ebola patients' homes and incinerating all their stuff? No one is going to be in there for at least a couple weeks. So any virus would be long dead and there would be no need for anyone to go in there in hazmat suits and ruin all their stuff.

This is a large contradiction between what they are saying and what they are doing.

Answer? I have no notion. But... they did that in The Hot Zone also, zapped the place so thoroughly that nothing lived in it anymore. Nothing. Of course, that was E. Reston, which had proved itself to be capable of being airborne.

The mystery contradiction remains. I have heard no explanation, nor any reporter asking them about this point, which just goes to show how... inattentive reporters are.

Speaking of E. Reston, they keep saying E Zaire is very unlikely to mutate to airborne ... and I really really hope they are correct on that point ... but E. Reston is thought to have come from Africa to the Philippines - via people or critters to a game park or who knows how - and hence to Reston, VA and somewhere along the way it figured out how to go airborne. And was devastatingly lethal to monkeys. And, as is eerily pointed out in The Hot Zone, E. Reston is so genetically close to E. Zaire that the Maringa sample of E. Zaire at USAMRIID reacted positive to the sample of what proved to be E. Reston, much stronger than either the E. Sudan or Marburg samples did

That being the case, how can they be so certain E Zaire will not do this? Gee, I hope they are correct about that. Hmmm.

Well, watch Africa. If E Zaire goes airborne it will be obvious because it will escalate frighteningly beyond the current already scary rate of transmission there. May this never, ever, happen.

I am not qualified to comment one way or the other on the competency of folks at the CDC etc. But I think I am allowed to notice contradictions and odd inconsistencies.

Cheers.

From an earlier poster's remark:

Try that rum - I like Barbados for this - with a bit of butter and a dash of maple syrup in apple cider - the real stuff not the fake crap. Heat gently. Yum Apple grog on a cold night.

Happy Halloween all.

And edited by moi trying to clarify a couple. points better

I can handle that mistakes were made at the hospital. At least the hospital is trying to learn from their own mistakes. What I have had a hard time understanding is current Obama administration not being more proactive.

1) A travel ban to and from those countries where the ebola virus is spreading.

2) A 42 day quarntine of all health care workers and military personal returning from the infected countries.

3) A lock down of southern border.

Northstar wrote:

cthia wrote:Ebola doctor infected of Ebola in New York. Traveling back to New York from West Africa. They have retraced his steps ... which included the subway.

What is it with certain persons who know they have been working with Very ill Ebola patients who then traipse over to visit people they love and go out and about on public close quarters transportation -planes, subways- and into places many people gather like bowling alleys, bridal shops, restaurants? I cringe at the very idea of risking such a thing. I do not understand the level of whatever it is that has some people doing these things.

Well, one is not infectious until symptomatic, so it may not really be as unsafe as all that. I don't think I would, but...

cthia wrote:What took our govt. and USAMRIID so fricking long?

[/quote]

I don't think anyone really took it that seriously as a threat, because Ebola IS quite containable (in a country with minimally competent healthcare etc.)

Originally the CDC were saying that any hospital can handle Ebola. The problem, I think, is that the CDC were over-optimistic on how well precautions were implemented in practice. If they used the precautions perfectly 100% of the time, yeah, it would be fine, but as we've seen with the two nurses in Dallas, that's not reality.

(But I really don't think it will become some super-epidemic in the way e.g. flu can. Nigeria got its Ebola issue under control, and I think we have it under control in the US. It will probably remain a major problem only in a comparatively localized area of West Africa.)

EDIT: fixed format

cralkhi wrote:

Northstar wrote:
What is it with certain persons who know they have been working with Very ill Ebola patients who then traipse over to visit people they love and go out and about on public close quarters transportation -planes, subways- and into places many people gather like bowling alleys, bridal shops, restaurants? I cringe at the very idea of risking such a thing. I do not understand the level of whatever it is that has some people doing these things.

Well, one is not infectious until symptomatic, so it may not really be as unsafe as all that. I don't think I would, but...


I don't think anyone really took it that seriously as a threat, because Ebola IS quite containable (in a country with minimally competent healthcare etc.)

Originally the CDC were saying that any hospital can handle Ebola. The problem, I think, is that the CDC were over-optimistic on how well precautions were implemented in practice. If they used the precautions perfectly 100% of the time, yeah, it would be fine, but as we've seen with the two nurses in Dallas, that's not reality.

(But I really don't think it will become some super-epidemic in the way e.g. flu can. Nigeria got its Ebola issue under control, and I think we have it under control in the US. It will probably remain a major problem only in a comparatively localized area of West Africa.)

EDIT: fixed format

I'm taking their word for it about not contagious before high fever etc, but reality is these folks sashaying around have cost various businesses millions and may ruin some. Right or wrong. Rational or not, that is what is indeed a really bad outcome for a bridal shop, a bowling alley, an airline, a cruise ship... on and on. Relatives stuck in quarantine and what sort of thing do they face when let out? Probably not fun. Inflicting this sort of thing on others is rude, to say the least.

Look, in earlier Ebola outbreaks people have flown while darn near terminal with Ebola and no one got sick. So we do kinda need to chill on that. but likewise persons who have been working with Ebola patients and are at risk need to show some caution and basic courtesy and not be using public transport or visiting around to family and friends or to public gathering places.

Take a walk in the park, fine. Ride the subway, or visit a business who would be severely impacted if you break with Ebola the next day, not fine. I just don't see why this is a difficult concept. The failure of others -who then broke with Ebola- to abide by it is precisely what is causing governors to declare mandatory quarantines on health workers coming from Africa, or here, or that matter.

As to that. It is unfortunate that nurse arriving in New Jersey was treated with profound rudeness, snottiness and an utter disregard for civil liberties or simple human decency. Courtesy and respect are simple and free, for cripe's sake. There is no excuse for the awful way she has been treated. You want a government who feels free to do that to you???? No??? Then do not excuse it being done to her. Most of the responses to her essay in The Dallas Daily News this morning are atrocious.

I am not opposed to a quarantine. I am opposed to rude callous disgusting behavior, and a lot of it by other health workers. Disgusting. Beware, as an earlier poster warned with an article about governmental over reach on this matter.

I doubt there is some big conspiracy, but there for sure is a lot of nasty behavior on the part of individuals who had zero need to behave like that. And there for sure is a lot of incompetency on all levels and that is fueling folk's fear and mistrust. It just is.

This morning I've heard some vague refereences to health workers refusing to go to work in New York because they do not trust the CDC prtocols. I don't blame them. The difference between how staff dress in the level 4 hospital set ups and how they say it is ok for other health workers to dress is very very large. Look at the pix. The level 4 folks are in full biohazard suits with hosed in air, as in that old flick, The Andromeda Strain. Or more recent bio horror flicks. They shower in chem germicides for several minutes before taking off the suit. But it is ok for Nurse Nancy at Bellevue or Dallas to just carefully take off her outfit. Really? This sort of thing is what is fueling the distrust and fear.

Lurid conspiracy? Probably not. Vast incompetence? Mmmm looks like it, doc.