Helm Cleaver (Contains Spoilers)

OK then, maybe off the top of my head I didn't remember correctly; it's just barely possible.

If it wasn't in Flag in Exile I don't know where else it might be. Long time since I've read the earlier Honorverse books.

DrakBibliophile wrote:Where did she say/think that?

The tradition that Grayson's first swordmasters learned from the movie "The Seven Samurai" was mentioned in Flag In Exile and Honor hadn't been able to track down the movie.

The only comment about the movie was that if the swordmasters had learned their craft from the movie, then the movie makers had been more accurate than Manticore's "movie makers".

Randomiser wrote:Hi Lyonheart

If I remember correctly, off the top of my head, it was Honor who thought the movies were somewhat lacking in artistic merit

I was just drawing attention to the fact that DW also chose to feature Japanese swords in that other universe of his, which only occurred to me as I was writing the post.

XofDallas wrote:In one of the snippets, Ninyan mentions shaving pieces of granite off a block with Helm Cleaver.

I think recognizing Helm Cleaver is kinda backwards.

Ninyan knows for sure it's Helm Cleaver. Ninyan probably wants to see if Seijin Merlin's swords can do the same things Helm Cleaver can. This moves "Merlin is a Seijin" from "intellectual certainty" to "indisputable proof". Which is likely to be handy from the perspective of convincing the rest of the secretive-for-centuries order of Saint Khody, most members of which have never met Merlin or any of Merlin's alter-egos.

[quote="Randomiser"]OK then, maybe off the top of my head I didn't remember correctly; it's just barely possible.

If it wasn't in Flag in Exile I don't know where else it might be. Long time since I've read the earlier Honorverse books.


It is Flag In Exile. Listening to series on audio, and that chapter just played on the way home tonight. Honor hasn't even been able to track down the word movie, let alone find one.

Ramhawkfan wrote:

Randomiser wrote:OK then, maybe off the top of my head I didn't remember correctly; it's just barely possible.

If it wasn't in Flag in Exile I don't know where else it might be. Long time since I've read the earlier Honorverse books.


It is Flag In Exile. Listening to series on audio, and that chapter just played on the way home tonight. Honor hasn't even been able to track down the word movie, let alone find one.

IIRC, her Uncle Jacques staged a movie festival in Harrington Steading so they must have been able to deal with that issue somehow.

Don

Don't think Merlin or Ninyan need to have Helm Cleaver to prove Merlin is a Seijin - he already has a signature weapon set - twin swords and nasty pistols.
I think his efforts carving his way through the throng surrounding a certain King or that there are some survivors who have seen him stride through bad guys lopping the odd head off here and there more than account for his Seijin credentials

Cannot remember exactly where I saw or read it but it has been shown that for lopping off heads cleanly in battle the katana wins hands down ... in saying this I am not volunteering myself as a test subject to see if a claymore or broadsword can do the same thing

Well, I'm no expect on swords or sword-making but I'm also heard that the katana wasn't that superior to other swords.

Mind you, like you, I'm not willing to have any swordman demonstrate how good their sword is on my body.

Thrandir wrote:Don't think Merlin or Ninyan need to have Helm Cleaver to prove Merlin is a Seijin - he already has a signature weapon set - twin swords and nasty pistols.
I think his efforts carving his way through the throng surrounding a certain King or that there are some survivors who have seen him stride through bad guys lopping the odd head off here and there more than account for his Seijin credentials

Cannot remember exactly where I saw or read it but it has been shown that for lopping off heads cleanly in battle the katana wins hands down ... in saying this I am not volunteering myself as a test subject to see if a claymore or broadsword can do the same thing

DrakBibliophile wrote:Well, I'm no expect on swords or sword-making but I'm also heard that the katana wasn't that superior to other swords.

Mind you, like you, I'm not willing to have any swordman demonstrate how good their sword is on my body.

Thrandir wrote:Don't think Merlin or Ninyan need to have Helm Cleaver to prove Merlin is a Seijin - he already has a signature weapon set - twin swords and nasty pistols.
I think his efforts carving his way through the throng surrounding a certain King or that there are some survivors who have seen him stride through bad guys lopping the odd head off here and there more than account for his Seijin credentials

Cannot remember exactly where I saw or read it but it has been shown that for lopping off heads cleanly in battle the katana wins hands down ... in saying this I am not volunteering myself as a test subject to see if a claymore or broadsword can do the same thing

The primary difference between the katana and western swords is the way the edge is sharpened.

The katana is sharpened in a convex "V". The sides bulge out and then curve into the edge. The effect is to push the object it is cutting into away from the blade. That allows the sword to pass through with less friction.

Western blades are sharpened with straighter sides on the "V". Western blades tend to be thinner at the edge. The effect is that the blade as a greater surface area in contact with what is being cut. Between this and the thinner blade up to the edge that breaks easier, the western style blades are indeed less effective at lopping off extremities.

DrakBibliophile wrote:Well, I'm no expect on swords or sword-making but I'm also heard that the katana wasn't that superior to other swords.

Mind you, like you, I'm not willing to have any swordman demonstrate how good their sword is on my body.

I am not an expert by any means but from what I remember the "real difference" between western swords and eastern ones such as the Katana was in the manufacturing techniques used to make them.

one thing I remember reading was how some of the swords were commonly made.

the Katana was made using annealing and "folding techniques" where your piece of steel was hammered out thin, then folded over and hammered thin again at least ~20 times. additionally the curve on a Katana was a feature both of part of the process of making it, and an intended feature as a katana is more of a slashing weapon than a thrusting one, and the curve makes it less likely to "stick" in a target (similar to sabres and scimitars)

at least one method used in "western" sword making I read about took a number of iron/steel bars, fused them at 1 end and while they were heated twisted them like a screw, before hammer wielding/shaping them into a sword.

additionally "westerners" used a lot more metal in armor so the weapons were designed around defeating that armor as well.

Western swords were much better for parrying. Katanas simply weren't designed for that purpose--parrying was done with the BACK of the blade in some styles. Nor, you will note, does Merlin ever do much in the line of parrying--a technique which is absolutely basic to Western style fencing. In aikido--they met before our fencing group when I still fenced--they said "evade and strike" was the goal. It is hard to imagine almost any attack in Western style fencing that does not a beat, parry, or bind (or combination of these) at some point in the sequence leading up to point/hit.

Also, a hit on the flat of a katana can literally bend it--they do not have a spine in the Western sense. While it can be straightened, you don't want to be doing that while fighting.

Of course Merlin's blades being of battle steel do not suffer these real weaknesses.

Guardiandashi wrote:

DrakBibliophile wrote:Well, I'm no expect on swords or sword-making but I'm also heard that the katana wasn't that superior to other swords.

Mind you, like you, I'm not willing to have any swordman demonstrate how good their sword is on my body.

I am not an expert by any means but from what I remember the "real difference" between western swords and eastern ones such as the Katana was in the manufacturing techniques used to make them.

one thing I remember reading was how some of the swords were commonly made.

the Katana was made using annealing and "folding techniques" where your piece of steel was hammered out thin, then folded over and hammered thin again at least ~20 times. additionally the curve on a Katana was a feature both of part of the process of making it, and an intended feature as a katana is more of a slashing weapon than a thrusting one, and the curve makes it less likely to "stick" in a target (similar to sabres and scimitars)

at least one method used in "western" sword making I read about took a number of iron/steel bars, fused them at 1 end and while they were heated twisted them like a screw, before hammer wielding/shaping them into a sword.

additionally "westerners" used a lot more metal in armor so the weapons were designed around defeating that armor as well.

DrakBibliophile wrote:Where did she say/think that?

The tradition that Grayson's first swordmasters learned from the movie "The Seven Samurai" was mentioned in Flag In Exile and Honor hadn't been able to track down the movie.

The only comment about the movie was that if the swordmasters had learned their craft from the movie, then the movie makers had been more accurate than Manticore's "movie makers".

Randomiser wrote:Hi Lyonheart

If I remember correctly, off the top of my head, it was Honor who thought the movies were somewhat lacking in artistic merit

I was just drawing attention to the fact that DW also chose to feature Japanese swords in that other universe of his, which only occurred to me as I was writing the post.

Mission of Honor
Chapter 12
Helen, Helga, Gwen and Abigail chatting.


"Up until Lady Harrington did some research back home in Manticore—I think she even queried the library computers in Beowulf and on Old Terra, as a matter of fact—nobody on Grayson had ever actually seen the movies our ancestors apparently based their notions of swordplay on.

Now, unfortunately, we have. And fairness requires that I admit most of the 'samurai movies' were at least as silly as anything the Neue-Stil people could have been watching."