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24 pounder tested against a hull replica of the Wasa warship

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24 pounder tested against a hull replica of the Wasa warship
Post by Joat42   » Thu Oct 23, 2014 9:33 am

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Yesterday they tested a 24 pounder replica against a hull replica of the Wasa warship here in Sweden.

Short article here: http://www.thelocal.se/20141022/iconic-vasa-ship-fires-biggest
Short video here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HxMEv998lsE
Long video here (sorry, audio in Swedish; no subtitles): http://www.svt.se/nyheter/regionalt/tvarsnytt/efter-lang-vantan-vasakanonen-fyras-av
Blog on how they made the replica of the 24 pounder: http://www.vasamuseet.se/en/The-Ship/Creating-the-Cannon/ (warning, picture heavy :))

Trivia: The builders of the hull replica bet a case of beers against the builders of the cannon that it wouldn't penetrate the hull. 8-)

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Re: 24 pounder tested against a hull replica of the Wasa war
Post by jgnfld   » Thu Oct 23, 2014 9:53 am

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I see splinters. Unlike Mythbusters apparently.

Joat42 wrote:Yesterday they tested a 24 pounder replica against a hull replica of the Wasa warship here in Sweden.

Short article here: http://www.thelocal.se/20141022/iconic-vasa-ship-fires-biggest
Short video here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HxMEv998lsE
Long video here (sorry, audio in Swedish; no subtitles): http://www.svt.se/nyheter/regionalt/tvarsnytt/efter-lang-vantan-vasakanonen-fyras-av
Blog on how they made the replica of the 24 pounder: http://www.vasamuseet.se/en/The-Ship/Creating-the-Cannon/ (warning, picture heavy :))

Trivia: The builders of the hull replica bet a case of beers against the builders of the cannon that it wouldn't penetrate the hull. 8-)
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Re: 24 pounder tested against a hull replica of the Wasa war
Post by Joat42   » Thu Oct 23, 2014 10:15 am

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jgnfld wrote:I see splinters. Unlike Mythbusters apparently.

Yes, it seems they had expected the splinters to be larger in this test which they make a comment about in the long video but since the shot missed the framing it could be due to that.

The only way to be sure is to make a series of repeated shots at different parts of the hull to determine when and how the splintering occurs.

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Re: 24 pounder tested against a hull replica of the Wasa war
Post by Randomiser   » Thu Oct 23, 2014 11:13 am

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Any idea of the range?


Joat42 wrote:Yesterday they tested a 24 pounder replica against a hull replica of the Wasa warship here in Sweden.

Short article here: http://www.thelocal.se/20141022/iconic-vasa-ship-fires-biggest
Short video here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HxMEv998lsE
Long video here (sorry, audio in Swedish; no subtitles): http://www.svt.se/nyheter/regionalt/tvarsnytt/efter-lang-vantan-vasakanonen-fyras-av
Blog on how they made the replica of the 24 pounder: http://www.vasamuseet.se/en/The-Ship/Creating-the-Cannon/ (warning, picture heavy :))

Trivia: The builders of the hull replica bet a case of beers against the builders of the cannon that it wouldn't penetrate the hull. 8-)
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Re: 24 pounder tested against a hull replica of the Wasa war
Post by Joat42   » Thu Oct 23, 2014 12:06 pm

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Randomiser wrote:Any idea of the range?

Sadly, no. They haven't given any details on the performance of the cannon.

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Re: 24 pounder tested against a hull replica of the Wasa war
Post by Thucydides   » Thu Oct 23, 2014 4:01 pm

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Interesting bit of history rivia for you:

The Vasa was designed at one of the transition points of naval evolution. Although she is a full rigged ship with three gun decks, she was not really a "ship of the line" as we think of them. She was designed at a time when the basic naval tactic was still boarding enemy ships and capturing them in a swarm of troops.

Look at the Vasa's lines, and you see that the when the cannon are run out they do not form an effective broadside, since they are all slightly iverging from each other (as the range increases, the shot will land farther and farther apart). She could shoot ar fairly acute angles from the stem, but less so for the stern.

At that point in history, Vasa probably would not have been engaged in many naval battles. The Swedish Navy was mostly taken in blockade duties along the Baltic coast, extracting "taxes" from passing shipping and ensuring only the sorts of cargos the Swedish crown approved of would either be shipped from or received by the Baltic ports. A formidible ship filled with Marines was just the ticket fo0r that sort of work.
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Re: 24 pounder tested against a hull replica of the Wasa war
Post by twistedSkein   » Thu Oct 23, 2014 5:24 pm

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jgnfld wrote:I see splinters. Unlike Mythbusters apparently.



As I recall, it wasn't that Mythbusters didn't see splinters but that they found the splinters created by the impact lacked sufficient energy to cause more than mild discomfort to the human analogues they placed to catch said shrapnel. A far cry from a flying piece of shattered wood punching through-and-through someone's throat, you know?
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Re: 24 pounder tested against a hull replica of the Wasa war
Post by Henry Brown   » Thu Oct 23, 2014 7:59 pm

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twistedSkein wrote:As I recall, it wasn't that Mythbusters didn't see splinters but that they found the splinters created by the impact lacked sufficient energy to cause more than mild discomfort to the human analogues they placed to catch said shrapnel. A far cry from a flying piece of shattered wood punching through-and-through someone's throat, you know?


From what I remember about that episode, the Mythbusters were using the only cannon they could borrow, which IIRC was a land based 12 pounder. I remember thinking when watching the episode that historical naval cannon were bigger than what they were using. If they had had a naval 24 pounder I'd bet they would have gotten more powerful splintering.
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Re: 24 pounder tested against a hull replica of the Wasa war
Post by runsforcelery   » Thu Oct 23, 2014 8:03 pm

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twistedSkein wrote:
jgnfld wrote:I see splinters. Unlike Mythbusters apparently.



As I recall, it wasn't that Mythbusters didn't see splinters but that they found the splinters created by the impact lacked sufficient energy to cause more than mild discomfort to the human analogues they placed to catch said shrapnel. A far cry from a flying piece of shattered wood punching through-and-through someone's throat, you know?



There were occasions upon which Mythbusters had carnal relations with a pooch, :evil: and this was one of them.

They used a 12-pounder (or possible even a 6-pounder; I don't really recall which) against a replica of a typical merchant ship's hull (i.e., planking about 2" thick). This is a far cry from a 24-pounder or 32-pounder punching through 36" or so of seasoned oak. You get, ah . . . somewhat larger splinters moving at higher velocity from the latter. Neither the round shot nor the planking really fitted what would have happened in a naval action of the period and, in fact, the thinness of the planking undoubtedly skewed the test much more than the lightness of the shot did. (Of course, a 12-pounder probably wouldn't have penetrated a typical mid-18th century liner at all, which also would have skewed the results somewhat. ;) )

It's worth noting that Vasa wasn't really designed to face heavy artillery in a pounding match. As Thucydides pointed out in an earlier post, she was a transitional design from a time at which boarding actions were primary and artillery actions were secondary. By Nelson's time and the "classic age of fighting sail" that had flipped, with the gun becoming primary and boarding either a desperation tactic by a losing opponent or a final "clean up" action to follow the gun duel. As a consequence, Vasa was far more lightly built than a British 74 from, say, 1790, which means that round shot are going to produce much smaller splinters, probably moving at lower velocity, when they hit her timbers than they would when they hit the 74.

One problem of "historical experiments" is that the experiment has to be set in context. If all the Swedes want to know is how well a long 24-pounder (which, BTW, I suspect was shorter than a British 24 of 1780 and definitely would have used "weaker" gunpowder) would penetrate Vasa's side, their experiment's going to be a great success. If they want to look at how splinters were produced by a broadside of 24-pounders or 32-pounders firing at a genuine ship-of-the-line, then they need to build a cross section from HMS Captain and fire a few rounds at that.

One neat thing about the video, though --- it certainly makes the importance of the weather gauge clear, doesn't it? Picture the amount of smoke that single shot spewed out, then imagine a broadside from a 3-decker (or something like the US "74" Ohio with a broadside of 15 long 32s, 16 medium 32s, and 15 32-pounder carronades). Think 46 guns firing round shot a third again as heavy wouldn't make lots of smoke? :o :geek: :lol:


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Re: 24 pounder tested against a hull replica of the Wasa war
Post by MWadwell   » Thu Oct 23, 2014 8:59 pm

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Randomiser wrote:Any idea of the range?


For the test shot, it looks to be approximately 20 meters between the gun and the target.

For the guns maximum range, I have no idea.....
.

Later,
Matt
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