Rediscovery of Technology

Spacekiwi wrote:

So a river shows periods of muddy periods, where it has broken the banks, and deposited mud? not unusual.

So, you have no idea what a varve is, how it lives, and its implications yet are posting! Bravo!

Likewise, unless there is a river a 1000 miles wide on a perfect gradient depositing uniform layers a thousand miles long... Oh wait, not even that "river" would work as it must be a mud slurry, otherwise there would be layers of river rock interspersed between seasonal mud slurry events in these formations and there are not.

Keep up your "scientific posts!". Your belief system is getting in the way of science.

varves are the equivalent of tree rings for rivers, and like tree rings, can have environmental effects, such as bioturbation, change them, and in the case of rivers, remove them. Currently, Also, Varves have been measured out only to 50,000 years ago, rendering hypotheses based on varves older than this period as yet unconfirmable.

In fact, theres a billion year gap in your depositions in the grand canyon, between 1.5 and 0.5 billion years ago,

You claim it needs a river, but shale formation also happens under swamps with slow moving currents, such as the Sudd swamp in sudan which covers 140,000 sq km, so is well within a magnitude of the size required.or the panatal of the same size. Therefore it is distinctly possible to have shale formations of this size without need for a river or lake, that are uniformly distributed.



As for my belief system, its popperian and lakatosian, to help me make sense of the world. This is not the first time this year, or indeed the last few years where you have cast aspersions as to the validity of my science, but every time you've been proven wrong by me and others. My belief system does not get in the way, as it is the way to be scientific. Otherwise I would be a priest or a pastor, not a scientist with a bachelors. I follow the evidence.

wastedfly wrote:So, you have no idea what a varve is, how it lives, and its implications yet are posting! Bravo!

Likewise, unless there is a river a 1000 miles wide on a perfect gradient depositing uniform layers a thousand miles long... Oh wait, not even that "river" would work as it must be a mud slurry, otherwise there would be layers of river rock interspersed between seasonal mud slurry events in these formations and there are not.

Keep up your "scientific posts!". Your belief system is getting in the way of science.

Gentlemen please stop personal attacks!

Science was wounded by religion, the Galileo trial and Scopes trial spring to mind.

The religious are attacked for being foolish in their beliefs, and looking at the evidence as supporting their beliefs differently than scientists.

So neither camp has clean hands IMHO. Both sides are dogmatic in their beliefs. Many religions have versions of the flood myths one of the earliest in record was the tale of Gilgamesh by the Sumerians. And did you know that the Chinese characters for a flood are 'seven survived' the exact number of survivors in the Bible's account of Noah Now science we all know the infinite monkeys banging on typewriters producing Shakespeare argument, but then there are a finite number of humans, and any finite number divided by infinity is zero for the odds of it being a coincidence, right

It would be better if we presented our interpretations and not deride presenters of different views, just saying.

Poker

The religious are attacked for being foolish in their beliefs, and looking at the evidence as supporting their beliefs differently than scientists.

So neither camp has clean hands IMHO. Both sides are dogmatic in their beliefs.

The difference is that science is not based on belief.

Science can be verified ( unless its something still in experimental stages, but that too is normally aknowledged ), religion nothing but belief.

[quote="Spacekiwi"]
You claim it needs a river, but shale formation also happens under swamps with slow moving currents, such as the Sudd swamp in sudan which covers 140,000 sq km, so is well within a magnitude of the size required.or the panatal of the same size. Therefore it is distinctly possible to have shale formations of this size without need for a river or lake, that are uniformly distributed.
[quote]

No, you claimed it could be done in a river. I was pointing out your scenario could not possibly be done in a river. Add in that a river creates channels that dig and move around and not flat making the creation of uniform 10m thick layers impossible.

It also cannot be created in swamps. You get no clast sorting. Regardless of clast sorting in a swamp, once again due to varves, bivalves, clams, and other burrowing invertebrate critters whom burrow through the swamp, makes swamps pointless as a mechanism for creating these layers. It takes forever leaving massive amounts of burrowing channels through the layers along with their skeletons. Swamp sedimentary rock/mud is very obvious to ascertain compared to other sedimentary strata.

Burrowing invertebrates have been around for a Billion or so according to the tree of life folks. Were first on the tree right after bacterias, amoebas, etc.

Until basic zoology/geology education is obtained, this discussion is pointless. Not saying I am some expert, but at least basic evolutionary tree knowledge and basic geology is needed.

Look up conditions REQUIRED for clast sorting in a moving mud flow. Check the velocity profile along with the gradient profile REQUIRED to create uniform clast sorting along with the fine sedimentary layers. This information will not be found online. At least I have never found it. It will be found in geology journals where they have created testable flume flows. It will be found in Geology books. Buried deeply and obscurely as the implications for this scientific testable fluid/mud flows completely destroys the layers formed year by year theory for the majority of the massive sedimentary rock formations we see all over the earth.

PS. A good starting point in the Geology journals would be looking up massive undersea avalanches in the Geology journals. These journal articles will have the background journal cites for sedimentary fluid flow formation testing done in previous/other journals. Only place in this world that has enough loose sediment/water/slope etc to create these layers. The ocean. This explanation has other problems, but the closest explanation anyways. The journals are only available at a University. I have never found them outside of the University library anyways. Anyways, read up, will gladly discuss undersea mud avalanches. Quite interesting actually. Rivers/Swamps/lakes/ocean bottoms as formation mechanisms for the vast majority of sedimentary formations around the world are non starters for very obvious reasons.

wastedfly wrote:
You claim it needs a river, but shale formation also happens under swamps with slow moving currents, such as the Sudd swamp in sudan which covers 140,000 sq km, so is well within a magnitude of the size required.or the panatal of the same size. Therefore it is distinctly possible to have shale formations of this size without need for a river or lake, that are uniformly distributed.


No, you claimed it could be done in a river. I was pointing out your scenario could not possibly be done in a river. Add in that a river creates channels that dig and move around and not flat making the creation of uniform 10m thick layers impossible.

It also cannot be created in swamps. You get no clast sorting. Regardless of clast sorting in a swamp, once again due to varves, bivalves, clams, and other burrowing invertebrate critters whom burrow through the swamp, makes swamps pointless as a mechanism for creating these layers. It takes forever leaving massive amounts of burrowing channels through the layers along with their skeletons. Swamp sedimentary rock/mud is very obvious to ascertain compared to other sedimentary strata.

Burrowing invertebrates have been around for a Billion or so according to the tree of life folks. Were first on the tree right after bacterias, amoebas, etc.

Until basic zoology/geology education is obtained, this discussion is pointless. Not saying I am some expert, but at least basic evolutionary tree knowledge and basic geology is needed.

Look up conditions REQUIRED for clast sorting in a moving mud flow. Check the velocity profile along with the gradient profile REQUIRED to create uniform clast sorting along with the fine sedimentary layers. This information will not be found online. At least I have never found it. It will be found in geology journals where they have created testable flume flows. It will be found in Geology books. Buried deeply and obscurely as the implications for this scientific testable fluid/mud flows completely destroys the layers formed year by year theory for the majority of the massive sedimentary rock formations we see all over the earth.

PS. A good starting point in the Geology journals would be looking up massive undersea avalanches in the Geology journals. These journal articles will have the background journal cites for sedimentary fluid flow formation testing done in previous/other journals. Only place in this world that has enough loose sediment/water/slope etc to create these layers. The ocean. This explanation has other problems, but the closest explanation anyways. The journals are only available at a University. I have never found them outside of the University library anyways. Anyways, read up, will gladly discuss undersea mud avalanches. Quite interesting actually. Rivers/Swamps/lakes/ocean bottoms as formation mechanisms for the vast majority of sedimentary formations around the world are non starters for very obvious reasons.

[/quote]


Fun fact: most of the Earth's surface has been underwater at some point or another in the last 5 billion years or so. There's nothing to say that the area you are talking about wasn't under the sea some millions of years ago.

I dint claim it could be done in a river, I noted about your statement requiring mud to be spread over large areas, that a muddy river bursting its banks and coating its flood plains was not unusual.



regarding the inability of clastic sorting in swamps, Several groups of geoilogists would disagree with you: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/016651629290003F , http://www.jstor.org/stable/3515484 , and http://bsgf.geoscienceworld.org/content/162/2/299.extract .

Layered, sorted clastic sedimentary rock, formed in swamps. Swamps that have living life in them with hundreds of millions of years to create the needed sedimentary rock. So it is plausible.


I base my arguements in facts.

Shale can be formed in swamps

wastedfly wrote:
No, you claimed it could be done in a river. I was pointing out your scenario could not possibly be done in a river. Add in that a river creates channels that dig and move around and not flat making the creation of uniform 10m thick layers impossible.

It also cannot be created in swamps. You get no clast sorting. Regardless of clast sorting in a swamp, once again due to varves, bivalves, clams, and other burrowing invertebrate critters whom burrow through the swamp, makes swamps pointless as a mechanism for creating these layers. It takes forever leaving massive amounts of burrowing channels through the layers along with their skeletons. Swamp sedimentary rock/mud is very obvious to ascertain compared to other sedimentary strata.

Burrowing invertebrates have been around for a Billion or so according to the tree of life folks. Were first on the tree right after bacterias, amoebas, etc.

Until basic zoology/geology education is obtained, this discussion is pointless. Not saying I am some expert, but at least basic evolutionary tree knowledge and basic geology is needed.

Look up conditions REQUIRED for clast sorting in a moving mud flow. Check the velocity profile along with the gradient profile REQUIRED to create uniform clast sorting along with the fine sedimentary layers. This information will not be found online. At least I have never found it. It will be found in geology journals where they have created testable flume flows. It will be found in Geology books. Buried deeply and obscurely as the implications for this scientific testable fluid/mud flows completely destroys the layers formed year by year theory for the majority of the massive sedimentary rock formations we see all over the earth.

PS. A good starting point in the Geology journals would be looking up massive undersea avalanches in the Geology journals. These journal articles will have the background journal cites for sedimentary fluid flow formation testing done in previous/other journals. Only place in this world that has enough loose sediment/water/slope etc to create these layers. The ocean. This explanation has other problems, but the closest explanation anyways. The journals are only available at a University. I have never found them outside of the University library anyways. Anyways, read up, will gladly discuss undersea mud avalanches. Quite interesting actually. Rivers/Swamps/lakes/ocean bottoms as formation mechanisms for the vast majority of sedimentary formations around the world are non starters for very obvious reasons.

Spacekiwi wrote:I dint claim it could be done in a river, I noted about your statement requiring mud to be spread over large areas, that a muddy river bursting its banks and coating its flood plains was not unusual.

regarding the inability of clastic sorting in swamps, SNIP

Layered, sorted clastic sedimentary rock, formed in swamps. Swamps that have living life in them with hundreds of millions of years to create the needed sedimentary rock.

Why not figure out what clast means before replying next time? That would be step 1.

Clast and clastic are NOT the same thing. One is a composition(clastic) plural noun formed from multiple clasts, the other is singular noun. Clast, a singular size of ROCK particle. In this case, the vast majority of sedimentary rock found on this planet is sorted into individual micro layers by clast size. Nearly all sandstone/mudstone is. There are exceptions. The Grand Canyon is not one of them.

River mouths, oceans, lakes, swamps create CLASTIC layers because they are NON moving, or velocity drops off too quickly, and have little in the case of river mouths to no sorting by clast.

I never stated shale cannot be formed in a swamp. Holy cow take a reading course. Sedimentary formations cannot be formed in a swamp without a million billion trillion holes burrowed through the varve layers from roots, invertebrates etc as it is laid down year by year. Learn to read. Or maybe you deliberately tried to change the subject to obfuscate. Got me.

As I said upthread, read an introductory geology book before we continue this discussion. Complete ignorance is a daunting hurdle to overcome for a meaningful discussion.

Zakharra wrote:

Fun fact: most of the Earth's surface has been underwater at some point or another in the last 5 billion years or so. There's nothing to say that the area you are talking about wasn't under the sea some millions of years ago.[/quote]

Correction: Fun fact, there isn't a single place on earth that hasn't been under the ocean at some time or another. You will find clam/muscle fossils on the highest peaks on earth.

Go read the articles, then come back and complain.

wastedfly wrote:

Spacekiwi wrote:I dint claim it could be done in a river, I noted about your statement requiring mud to be spread over large areas, that a muddy river bursting its banks and coating its flood plains was not unusual.

regarding the inability of clastic sorting in swamps, SNIP

Layered, sorted clastic sedimentary rock, formed in swamps. Swamps that have living life in them with hundreds of millions of years to create the needed sedimentary rock.

Why not figure out what clast means before replying next time? That would be step 1.

Clast and clastic are NOT the same thing. One is a composition(clastic) plural noun formed from multiple clasts, the other is singular noun. Clast, a singular size of ROCK particle. In this case, the vast majority of sedimentary rock found on this planet is sorted into individual micro layers by clast size. Nearly all sandstone/mudstone is. There are exceptions. The Grand Canyon is not one of them.

River mouths, oceans, lakes, swamps create CLASTIC layers because they are NON moving, or velocity drops off too quickly, and have little in the case of river mouths to no sorting by clast.

I never stated shale cannot be formed in a swamp. Holy cow take a reading course. Sedimentary formations cannot be formed in a swamp without a million billion trillion holes burrowed through the varve layers from roots, invertebrates etc as it is laid down year by year. Learn to read. Or maybe you deliberately tried to change the subject to obfuscate. Got me.

As I said upthread, read an introductory geology book before we continue this discussion. Complete ignorance is a daunting hurdle to overcome for a meaningful discussion.