Donkey LAC carriage

A point that might affect your thinking, JeffEngel:

LACs that are shipped by freighter are not disassembled. They are carried on the freighters fully assembled.

SWM wrote:A point that might affect your thinking, JeffEngel:

LACs that are shipped by freighter are not disassembled. They are carried on the freighters fully assembled.

Pretty much this. They would be in exactly the same state of readiness in a freighter hold as they would be while being towed. I think it was one of the earlier books, possibly even OBS, when somebody had the thought that their ship would fit inside of a near by freighter's hold. If you can fit an entire cruiser into a hold, you can push a bunch of LACs in there.

Jonathan_S wrote:

JeffEngel wrote:If they were to try to put together another "Operation Raging Justice", they'd at least have the savvy now to bring a lot more screening elements. They _may_ have the savvy to realize that a low-profile, CM-heavy LAC would do a lot better as a forward missile defense than a swarm of DD's, but the swarm of DD's is what they have and I doubt they're going to be building large numbers of a new class of unit in a radical departure from the designs already available to them in the near future.

Although now I have a vision of them trying this and discovering in horror that the GA members have robust and effective anti-LAC or counter-LAC designs and strategy. (Katana sweeps, or Cimeterre-Beta triple-ripple attacks)

Oops, there went your missile defense.
(And that's not a knock on your idea. I think it is a good idea from the point of view of a SLN Admiral attempting to address his missile defense deficit. It's simply that we all have more information that he does and know it's still likely to turn out poorly for him)

One of the major problems that I see preventing the SLN from coming up with the idea of transporting LACs as part of SLN screening forces is that LACs are inherently non-hyper capable units and were used strictly for system defense in the Honorverse until the Havenites jury-rigged transporting them into hyperspace (more as a desperate tactic to keep the Masadans in the strategic fight), followed by improved RMN LACs that made the idea of the CLAC worthwhile.

I would expect the SLN is starting from the point of what LACs the League has are in the hands of the System Defense Forces, not the SLN. (The SDFs handle local defense, the SLN handles interstellar defense.) If the SLN were the only naval forces in the Solarian League and had full responsibility for the roles the SDFs fulfill and not only its current duties (and both had and maintained a force of LACs in each system to carry out those responsibilities), I could see a SLN officer propose the idea. Without the responsibility and the forces (LACs) needed to fulfill them, I don't think that the SLN will come up with the idea, simply because they don't have the resources. And I don't think that they will have the time* to develop the idea from essentially a standing start, even with the examples presented by the RMN and the RHN of how it could work.

*'Go sir, gallop, and don't forget that the world was made in six days. You can ask me for anything you like, except time.' Napoleon Bonaparte

Vince wrote:One of the major problems that I see preventing the SLN from coming up with the idea of transporting LACs as part of SLN screening forces is that LACs are inherently non-hyper capable units and were used strictly for system defense in the Honorverse until the Havenites jury-rigged transporting them into hyperspace (more as a desperate tactic to keep the Masadans in the strategic fight), followed by improved RMN LACs that made the idea of the CLAC worthwhile.

I would expect the SLN is starting from the point of what LACs the League has are in the hands of the System Defense Forces, not the SLN. (The SDFs handle local defense, the SLN handles interstellar defense.) If the SLN were the only naval forces in the Solarian League and had full responsibility for the roles the SDFs fulfill and not only its current duties (and both had and maintained a force of LACs in each system to carry out those responsibilities), I could see a SLN officer propose the idea. Without the responsibility and the forces (LACs) needed to fulfill them, I don't think that the SLN will come up with the idea, simply because they don't have the resources. And I don't think that they will have the time* to develop the idea from essentially a standing start, even with the examples presented by the RMN and the RHN of how it could work.

*'Go sir, gallop, and don't forget that the world was made in six days. You can ask me for anything you like, except time.' Napoleon Bonaparte

While true, it is a mental leap - that's really all it is. Freighters can be badly modified in weeks or several months to carry LACS, and the current LAC designs can be built in numbers quickly. Do they suck - Yes, but I believe it's been said that quantity has a quality all it's own. The SL could get a defense optimized LAC into production quickly, and inside 6 months to a year have them and half-baked freighter based CLACs available in numbers to bolster fleet defenses.

Shoals of LACs are probably the easiest thing the SLN can do - quickly - to improve it's combat power (Note, I'm not saying they can build a shrike or Katanna, or even a design which has more than a minute fraction of their capability, just that it is one of the quickest ways for them to increase combat power.) The question is do they see it?

Theemile wrote:

Vince wrote:One of the major problems that I see preventing the SLN from coming up with the idea of transporting LACs as part of SLN screening forces is that LACs are inherently non-hyper capable units and were used strictly for system defense in the Honorverse until the Havenites jury-rigged transporting them into hyperspace (more as a desperate tactic to keep the Masadans in the strategic fight), followed by improved RMN LACs that made the idea of the CLAC worthwhile.

I would expect the SLN is starting from the point of what LACs the League has are in the hands of the System Defense Forces, not the SLN. (The SDFs handle local defense, the SLN handles interstellar defense.) If the SLN were the only naval forces in the Solarian League and had full responsibility for the roles the SDFs fulfill and not only its current duties (and both had and maintained a force of LACs in each system to carry out those responsibilities), I could see a SLN officer propose the idea. Without the responsibility and the forces (LACs) needed to fulfill them, I don't think that the SLN will come up with the idea, simply because they don't have the resources. And I don't think that they will have the time* to develop the idea from essentially a standing start, even with the examples presented by the RMN and the RHN of how it could work.

*'Go sir, gallop, and don't forget that the world was made in six days. You can ask me for anything you like, except time.' Napoleon Bonaparte

While true, it is a mental leap - that's really all it is. Freighters can be badly modified in weeks or several months to carry LACS, and the current LAC designs can be built in numbers quickly. Do they suck - Yes, but I believe it's been said that quantity has a quality all it's own. The SL could get a defense optimized LAC into production quickly, and inside 6 months to a year have them and half-baked freighter based CLACs available in numbers to bolster fleet defenses.

Shoals of LACs are probably the easiest thing the SLN can do - quickly - to improve it's combat power (Note, I'm not saying they can build a shrike or Katanna, or even a design which has more than a minute fraction of their capability, just that it is one of the quickest ways for them to increase combat power.) The question is do they see it?

The often overlooked corollary to the saying that quantity has a quality all its own is:

For your quantity to have its own quality, the quality of your quantity must at least be within shouting distance of your opponent's quality. Otherwise what you end up is offering your opponent a target rich environment.

In the Honorverse an example of quantity having a quality all its own is the Havenite navy before Operation Buttercup kicked off. Haven had the advantage of quantity, Manticore had the advantage of quality, but Haven's quality was within shouting distance of Manticore's quality, giving Haven's quantity its quality all its own.

After Operation Buttercup kicked off, Haven's quantity lost its quality of its own, because Haven's quality was no longer in shouting distance of Manticore's quality. Haven ended up providing Manticore a target rich environment.

The SLN against the Grand Alliance is starting from a much worse position than Haven was against Manticore after Operation Buttercup, in terms of the quality of its hardware and training of its personnel.

As far as shoals of SLN LACs used to improve the SLN's combat power are concerned, remember what happened at Barnett when White Haven came calling as the first battle* of Operation Buttercup. The PRN had over 700 old style LACs and ended up losing the battle*.

* The battle' was best described by White Haven afterward as drowning baby chicks.

Don't forget the in-built bureaucratic turf wars, nepotism, cronyism and general corruption of the SLN. I don't think they actually have an LAC design in current production, all the LACs being built in the League (if any) are for SDFs. That means they'll have to either choose an off-the-shelf design being used by one or more SDFs or agree on a new design of their own - can anyone see that being done in a hurry, even in a war emergency situation?

There's also the question of whether they could put an even marginally-viable LAC design into the field in the first place. Looking back at the stats on for the RMN Highlander-class on the wiki (which, of course, could be wrong and I don't have HoS to hand, so please correct me if needed), they could at best barely keep up with a contemporary SD at full acceleration. If the SLN can't produce an LAC design that's fast enough to maneuver around their wall (probably needing a minimum 80-100g acceleration advantage over the SDs to do so), the whole idea may be futile in any case.

Dafmeister wrote:There's also the question of whether they could put an even marginally-viable LAC design into the field in the first place. Looking back at the stats on for the RMN Highlander-class on the wiki (which, of course, could be wrong and I don't have HoS to hand, so please correct me if needed), they could at best barely keep up with a contemporary SD at full acceleration. If the SLN can't produce an LAC design that's fast enough to maneuver around their wall (probably needing a minimum 80-100g acceleration advantage over the SDs to do so), the whole idea may be futile in any case.

For a fleet defense unit, you need this why? If they are providing a significant amount of missile defense, doesn't it make sense to slow down to keep up? What exactly is the practical difference between 350 and 425 g of acceleration in practical terms?

Dafmeister wrote:There's also the question of whether they could put an even marginally-viable LAC design into the field in the first place. Looking back at the stats on for the RMN Highlander-class on the wiki (which, of course, could be wrong and I don't have HoS to hand, so please correct me if needed), they could at best barely keep up with a contemporary SD at full acceleration.

House of Steel eARC wrote:Highlander-class light attack craft
Mass: 11,250 tons
Dimensions: 138 × 23 × 21 m
Acceleration: 409.3 G (4.014 kps²)
80% Accel: 327.5 G (3.211 kps²)
Broadside: 12MB, 1L, 3PD
Chase: 1L
Service Life: 1843–1912

For reference, Manticore's earliest SD -- most comparable to modern SLN SD designs:

House of Steel eARC wrote: Ad Astra-class dreadnought (1878 refit)
Mass: 3,895,500 tons
Dimensions: 1064 × 154 × 144 m
Acceleration: 450.8 G (4.421 kps²)
80% Accel: 360.7 G (3.537 kps²)
Broadside: 18M, 14L, 12G, 6ET, 8CM, 18PD
Chase: 4M, 6L, 2G, 2CM, 8PD
Number Built: 11
Service Life: 1632–1913

So, no, the SLN probably doesn't have any current LAC designs capable of running out front to screen SD formations. At least not if both groups maintain standard 80% Mil power settings.

kzt wrote:

Dafmeister wrote:If the SLN can't produce an LAC design that's fast enough to maneuver around their wall (probably needing a minimum 80-100g acceleration advantage over the SDs to do so), the whole idea may be futile in any case.

For a fleet defense unit, you need this why? If they are providing a significant amount of missile defense, doesn't it make sense to slow down to keep up? What exactly is the practical difference between 350 and 425 g of acceleration in practical terms?

For LACs to be useful as anti-missile assets they need to be able to keep up with their charges; it's even more effective if they can run ahead and intercept missile storms further than their charges can reach with their first CM salvo.

The practical difference is the same as merging onto the freeway in a car that can only do ten-second zero-to-sixty times vs merging in a car than can do five-second zero-to-sixty times. The former is going to be way behind by the time they match speeds, and they're never going to catch up if both mind the speed limit.

Weird Harold wrote:[
For LACs to be useful as anti-missile assets they need to be able to keep up with their charges; it's even more effective if they can run ahead and intercept missile storms further than their charges can reach with their first CM salvo.

The practical difference is the same as merging onto the freeway in a car that can only do ten-second zero-to-sixty times vs merging in a car than can do five-second zero-to-sixty times. The former is going to be way behind by the time they match speeds, and they're never going to catch up if both mind the speed limit.

Were you running 3rd fleets LACs? Because that is the idiocy they did. You KNOW there is a fight coming up, so you carefully refuse to deploy your primary antimissile platforms until far too late?

kzt wrote:For a fleet defense unit, you need this why? If they are providing a significant amount of missile defense, doesn't it make sense to slow down to keep up? What exactly is the practical difference between 350 and 425 g of acceleration in practical terms?

Quite a lot, when you have to break back across the hyper limit because you just found out there's a Manty squadron coming to meet you and you're already in missile range. You're taking fire as you run - do you want to face the choice of slowing down or abandoning your missile screen?