Junction defense units

I was thinking that Manticore could possibly use a specialized warship for defense of wormhole termini, without needing the capability to really accelerate much - sort of a cross between a fortress with an impeller wedge (primarily just for sails for wormhole transit) and a hypergenerator and an even heavier superdreadnought that accepts low impeller strength and accel for even more armor, sidewalls, weapons, etc.

They could use such a unit because, in actual practice, they've got fortresses in regular commission at the Junction and at one or more termini, and a fleet is regularly kept not far from one terminus or another with emergency use near other termini (8th Fleet for the Basilisk Raid, 3rd and 8th Fleets for First Manticore). So it's a niche that's already being filled by non-hyper-capable fortresses (which cannot protect other termini) and hyper-capable fleets (which do have other things they could be doing instead).

The biggest issue I see with it is that the hyper-capable fortress may just amount to a superdreadnought that gains too little combat advantage from the sacrifice of higher acceleration, and that the closest good implementation of the idea would simply be a group of SD(P)'s and CLAC's on permanent assignment as a junction/terminus defense reserve. It would depend on just how harsh the curve is with diminishing acceleration (and how large/expensive the impellers need to be) when you creep up over traditional SD volume/mass caps.

Actually, those fleets were not kept near the termini for the purpose of running through the Junction to defend another terminus. It was happenstance that those fleets were there and able to run to the rescue.

The new fortresses have Keyhole, and control thousands of Apollo pods. The termini are also protected by shoals of mines. The termini should not need additional support at this point.

JeffEngel wrote:I was thinking that Manticore could possibly use a specialized warship for defense of wormhole termini, without needing the capability to really accelerate much - sort of a cross between a fortress with an impeller wedge (primarily just for sails for wormhole transit) and a hypergenerator and an even heavier superdreadnought that accepts low impeller strength and accel for even more armor, sidewalls, weapons, etc.

They could use such a unit because, in actual practice, they've got fortresses in regular commission at the Junction and at one or more termini, and a fleet is regularly kept not far from one terminus or another with emergency use near other termini (8th Fleet for the Basilisk Raid, 3rd and 8th Fleets for First Manticore). So it's a niche that's already being filled by non-hyper-capable fortresses (which cannot protect other termini) and hyper-capable fleets (which do have other things they could be doing instead).

The biggest issue I see with it is that the hyper-capable fortress may just amount to a superdreadnought that gains too little combat advantage from the sacrifice of higher acceleration, and that the closest good implementation of the idea would simply be a group of SD(P)'s and CLAC's on permanent assignment as a junction/terminus defense reserve. It would depend on just how harsh the curve is with diminishing acceleration (and how large/expensive the impellers need to be) when you creep up over traditional SD volume/mass caps.

Since their modern forts are supposed to be capable of slugging it out with modern SD(P)s, and that no mater how tough you are it's suicide to make an opposed wormhole transit, I'm not sure why you need hypercapable defenders for wormholes.

Forts themselves already have normal impellers and can move around (admittedly at only 100g or so), but by not mounting sails they aren't limited to the double spindle hull form of a starship - so they can be more optimized for n-space combat.


What scenario do you see where the defenders need to be able to move (or fight I guess) in hyper? (It's entirely possible there's an attack scenario I'm not thinking of that can only be practically mitigated by following the attacker back into hyper)

Jonathan_S wrote:What scenario do you see where the defenders need to be able to move (or fight I guess) in hyper? (It's entirely possible there's an attack scenario I'm not thinking of that can only be practically mitigated by following the attacker back into hyper)

Being able to enter hyper would be entirely for being able to transit the wormhole. The point would be to have one defense force that could be re-deployed as needed to defend the immediate area of _any_ of the junction's termini, as a supplement to the defenses fixed for each of them.

At least after the Basilisk Raid, having those fleets near a terminus wasn't entirely happenstance - they were considered a defensive reserve as well. I recall White Haven being irked that the defense-mindedness Icarus induced had 8th Fleet with a foot nailed to the floor to be that reserve. Granted, it wasn't to be a reserve purely for the defense of just the termini - more for the defense of the termini and the star systems they were in (Basilisk, Manticore, and Trevor's Star at least) - but certainly a force dedicated to that role and optimized for it could help satisfy that need. You wouldn't have to have quite as large a picket at Lynx _and_ Manticore _and_ Beowulf (for the most current likely targets) if you had one that could move from one to another quickly, was kept at the Junction for that purpose, and was built around that mission in mind.

JeffEngel wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:What scenario do you see where the defenders need to be able to move (or fight I guess) in hyper? (It's entirely possible there's an attack scenario I'm not thinking of that can only be practically mitigated by following the attacker back into hyper)

Being able to enter hyper would be entirely for being able to transit the wormhole. The point would be to have one defense force that could be re-deployed as needed to defend the immediate area of _any_ of the junction's termini, as a supplement to the defenses fixed for each of them.

At least after the Basilisk Raid, having those fleets near a terminus wasn't entirely happenstance - they were considered a defensive reserve as well. I recall White Haven being irked that the defense-mindedness Icarus induced had 8th Fleet with a foot nailed to the floor to be that reserve. Granted, it wasn't to be a reserve purely for the defense of just the termini - more for the defense of the termini and the star systems they were in (Basilisk, Manticore, and Trevor's Star at least) - but certainly a force dedicated to that role and optimized for it could help satisfy that need. You wouldn't have to have quite as large a picket at Lynx _and_ Manticore _and_ Beowulf (for the most current likely targets) if you had one that could move from one to another quickly, was kept at the Junction for that purpose, and was built around that mission in mind.

Ok, I can see that.

The risk though is that if the attacker has enough force to plow through the static defenses then any re-enforcements are also screwed. Ships are just too vulnerable while in the "lane" - there's somewhere between 30 seconds to a few minutes (depending on ship size and the specific wormhole) when the wormhole terminus "lane's" gravity it too high to switch to a wedge. During that time they have sails, but no wedge, no sidewalls, and no ability to launch missiles, CMs, drones, decoys, etc. (Anything launched there would be torn apart by the gravity of the wormhole).

That makes the ship hideously vulnerable to fire because it has only its PDLCs and ECM to defend itself with. But the "lane" is narrow enough that incoming laser-head missiles can still reach attack range without hitting it. Even a DD semi-near the wormhole has a decent change of mission killing an SD(P) trying to come through.


So you still need a nasty enough fixed (or at least permanently deployed) defense to hold the enemy out of effective missile range of the wormhole terminus for long enough to shuttle your reinforcements through.

Nah, I want to see a hyper capable 240Mton Death Star transiting the MWHJ raining destruction on the SL!

HAR HAR HAR!

[quote="JeffEngel"]I was thinking that Manticore could possibly use a specialized warship for defense of wormhole termini,

I don't think Manticore needs a "Junction Defense Unit"; their junction forts with Keyhole II and remote graser platforms will take out or disable anything unwanted coming through.

The Sollies or the Mesan Alignment, though, MAY look at something like that. The Sollies (1) don't want to lose anymore termini and (2) don't want to tie up their current fleet (which they are just now understanding are targets not ships).
The MA have comparatively few ships -- even all the RA / MA ships total are 2 or 3 task forces in size. The RA / MA also have several unpublished (to the universe at least) wormholes of their own which they need to protect without tying up their operational fleet (ie Mannerheim).

-- Stewart

I think that given the size of what you propose there would be problems with just how many could transit without locking down the wormhole for additional forces to transit if needed.

T&R
GJS

George J. Smith wrote:I think that given the size of what you propose there would be problems with just how many could transit without locking down the wormhole for additional forces to transit if needed.

T&R
GJS

The time goes with mass squared, so if you want maximal tonnage in sequential transit, ships should be small, relatively speaking. So you would end up with a slightly larger SD that doesn't have a significant advantage over normal SD's but is way more sluggish, so my guess is you are better off with a reaction force of Podnoughts.

stewart wrote:

JeffEngel wrote:I was thinking that Manticore could possibly use a specialized warship for defense of wormhole termini,

I don't think Manticore needs a "Junction Defense Unit"; their junction forts with Keyhole II and remote graser platforms will take out or disable anything unwanted coming through.

The Sollies or the Mesan Alignment, though, MAY look at something like that. The Sollies (1) don't want to lose anymore termini and (2) don't want to tie up their current fleet (which they are just now understanding are targets not ships).
The MA have comparatively few ships -- even all the RA / MA ships total are 2 or 3 task forces in size. The RA / MA also have several unpublished (to the universe at least) wormholes of their own which they need to protect without tying up their operational fleet (ie Mannerheim).

-- Stewart

The Solarian League has already lost all their wormhole termini. It is too late for them to develop a specialized ship to defend termini they no longer hold.