Possible Weapon Technology at MALign Bolthole

To keep speculation under control, I suggest that we limit ourselves to plausible extensions of technology we have already seen. Blue-sky speculation on black hole generators, time distorters, and remote fusion inducers are out-of-scope. Let's limit ourselves to known Honorverse tech and what we can expect from it. So far, I think people have been keeping it plausible.

And in that vein:

An improved graser for their Detweiler ships. Using the technology that went into the graser torpedoes, except that it does not run so long that it burns out. It seems reasonable that they had to cut corners to squeeze this new graser into the torpedoes, so imagine what they could do if a full-sized device were mounted on a capital ship. Perhaps it generates a beam for a second or so, at superdreadnought power levels. That would be enormously more devastating than a standard graser with microsecond (or whatever) duration. It would also be a good weapon for a ship intended to get into graser range without being seen. (Whether it can truly get that close to Manticoran ships is a separate question.)

SWM wrote:
To keep speculation under control, I suggest that we limit ourselves to plausible extensions of technology we have already seen. Blue-sky speculation on black hole generators, time distorters, and remote fusion inducers are out-of-scope. Let's limit ourselves to known Honorverse tech and what we can expect from it. So far, I think people have been keeping it plausible.

And in that vein:

An improved graser for their Detweiler ships. Using the technology that went into the graser torpedoes, except that it does not run so long that it burns out. It seems reasonable that they had to cut corners to squeeze this new graser into the torpedoes, so imagine what they could do if a full-sized device were mounted on a capital ship. Perhaps it generates a beam for a second or so, at superdreadnought power levels. That would be enormously more devastating than a standard graser with microsecond (or whatever) duration. It would also be a good weapon for a ship intended to get into graser range without being seen. (Whether it can truly get that close to Manticoran ships is a separate question.)

I certainly agree to keep proposals out of Black Hole territory, SWM. Thanks.

I am contemplating and trying to anticipate the MAN tech's next logical progression or area of upgrades, paralleling the Honorverse path of Manticore/Haven, whose tech was partly decided by what each other developed. Missile acceleration matching the GA and ditto for ECM, would turn graser torp technology into a nightmare for the GA

What is the effectiveness of graser torp vs laserheads? Am I correct in that there's a world of diff in effectiveness?

I am certain that has already been asked. Sorry.

Grasers like that would be perfect for pirates, anti-piracy/Q-ships. Close in and very effective on civilian style drives. It could also be a way to launch another strike against Manticore's orbital stations. Bring in several merchant vessels that have had alterations or are bring in a cargo of heavy equipment. Hide the graser(s) in the cargo, pick up other cargoes, and go to Manticore, then when the ship pulls into orbit by the station pull to offload the cargo (I imagine that being close makes it easier even with the ample energy budgets of spaceships and shuttles) someone pulls the trigger. The problem would be getting crews willingly enough to sacrifice themselves because any surviving crews would be rather rigorously interrogated.

Such a strike, even if it has only a limited effect would impose additional restrictions on allowing any vessel close to the stations and possible damage the Manticore economy.

cthia wrote:What is the effectiveness of graser torp vs laserheads? Am I correct in that there's a world of diff in effectiveness?

I am certain that has already been asked. Sorry.

I think it's an apples and oranges comparison. The graser torpedoes are much larger and much, much slower. They're aiming entirely based on passive sensors and pre-programming, versus active sensors and fast terminal maneuvering.

That said, a graser torpedo hits much harder than any single laserhead, and for a lot longer.

Given the targeting constraints, it's unlikely to see much use against a prepared or mobile target. Something _like_ it may be a lot more likely, such as that possible spider drive bus for conventional missiles.

This is out on another limb, but if you could engineer it at all, a multi-drive missile with an initial spider drive stage and a terminal impeller drive one would also get close to a target before firing off the impeller drive and becoming a visible threat. I wouldn't care to be the engineer trying to cobble those drive architectures together though.

Spider drive recon drones are a likely piece of the Mesan toolkit too. But I imagine the result would be functionally a whole lot like Manticoran ones, just with a different variety of stealth.

They've got the Technodyne MDM's at least, and almost certainly somewhat better versions too. I doubt those would be a surprise though.

JeffEngel wrote:I think it's an apples and oranges comparison. The graser torpedoes are much larger and much, much slower. They're aiming entirely based on passive sensors and pre-programming, versus active sensors and fast terminal maneuvering.

MDMs are approaching their target at 80% of the speed of light. They then have a firing window against a rolled ship measuring somewhere under 100 milliseconds, with a standoff range of 50,000 km. Exactly how are they supposed to use active sensors when the radar pulse doesn't REACH the target in the time they have to observe it?

cthia wrote:Graser Torpedoes? Hot damn, I was on to something. Just a day late and a credit short. Thanks for bringing me up to speed dreamrider.

Can anyone conceive of any other MALign tech that may be on the drawing board?

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Are there any limitations to the graser torp? Wiki doesn't give much info, except that it's cumbersome (to be expected), and more devastating, three seconds of on target fire as opposed to milliseconds. Sounds like a devastating weapon if it can be married with worthy ECM and acceleration speeds.

The main limitation right now is it's low accel. Mission of Honor tells us it can only pull "a few hundred gravities", which seems to make it slower than even most freighters.

You'd need to be carefully positioned to pull off a hit on a ship under acceleration, and even with its homing ability a relatively mild randomized course deviation would make that even harder. OTOH it's got the range and stealth to strike ships or stations in planetary orbit, so it's limits against mobile targets may not be that big a downside.


In terms of evolving it, it should be pretty trivial for them to turn that basic platform into a potentially reusable drone that can hunt system-defense pods. It's big enough that it should be able to carry multiple nukes that it can drop off for delayed detonation (while the basic torpedo body uses its stealth and sensors to get away and locate more pods). Big nukes should be able to kill more pods than the graser could.

I could even envision using it in conjunction with the Sharks, where they return for maintenance and power and keep and eye long enough to find and tail the ships that must periodically inspect and maintain the system pods - that's probably easier than trying to find the pods themselves.



Also, potentially they could mate that same graser-emitter up to a impeller powered drone. It'd be big, and be a lot less stealthy than a graser torp (and a lot slower than a missile). But it'd still have enough acceleration to chase down and engage ships under acceleration (even Mantie ships pulled near 800g). Though without really good conventional stealth it's unlikely to make it into firing range of an alert RMN ship; not under impellers. (I don't think even their Ghost Rider drones can get that close to an accelerating RMN ship that's on alert)

Jonathan_S wrote:

cthia wrote:Graser Torpedoes? Hot damn, I was on to something. Just a day late and a credit short. Thanks for bringing me up to speed dreamrider.

Can anyone conceive of any other MALign tech that may be on the drawing board?

****** *

Are there any limitations to the graser torp? Wiki doesn't give much info, except that it's cumbersome (to be expected), and more devastating, three seconds of on target fire as opposed to milliseconds. Sounds like a devastating weapon if it can be married with worthy ECM and acceleration speeds.

The main limitation right now is it's low accel. Mission of Honor tells us it can only pull "a few hundred gravities", which seems to make it slower than even most freighters.

You'd need to be carefully positioned to pull off a hit on a ship under acceleration, and even with its homing ability a relatively mild randomized course deviation would make that even harder. OTOH it's got the range and stealth to strike ships or stations in planetary orbit, so it's limits against mobile targets may not be that big a downside.


In terms of evolving it, it should be pretty trivial for them to turn that basic platform into a potentially reusable drone that can hunt system-defense pods. It's big enough that it should be able to carry multiple nukes that it can drop off for delayed detonation (while the basic torpedo body uses its stealth and sensors to get away and locate more pods). Big nukes should be able to kill more pods than the graser could.

I could even envision using it in conjunction with the Sharks, where they return for maintenance and power and keep and eye long enough to find and tail the ships that must periodically inspect and maintain the system pods - that's probably easier than trying to find the pods themselves.



Also, potentially they could mate that same graser-emitter up to a impeller powered drone. It'd be big, and be a lot less stealthy than a graser torp (and a lot slower than a missile). But it'd still have enough acceleration to chase down and engage ships under acceleration (even Mantie ships pulled near 800g). Though without really good conventional stealth it's unlikely to make it into firing range of an alert RMN ship; not under impellers. (I don't think even their Ghost Rider drones can get that close to an accelerating RMN ship that's on alert)

From what happened in the Yawata Strike, MAlign stealth is really, really good... better than even ghost rider. In fact, it seems to be the stealth that makes the MAlign really dangerous at the moment. Virtually everything else can be countered if you can find it.

Don

It seems the MALign has a handle on stealth technology. It seems shortsighted not to think the MALign can't utilize stealth technology in conventional weapons systems - new type ECM. Similar to the RHN not foreseeing Apollo stealth progressing into an offensive system.

One thing I don't understand is why the MAN doesn't employ conventional propulsion systems in its weapons systems, in conjunction with stealthy ships, getting them abnormally close to targets, that effective, opportune counter-missile fire would be diminished.

kzt wrote:

JeffEngel wrote:I think it's an apples and oranges comparison. The graser torpedoes are much larger and much, much slower. They're aiming entirely based on passive sensors and pre-programming, versus active sensors and fast terminal maneuvering.

MDMs are approaching their target at 80% of the speed of light. They then have a firing window against a rolled ship measuring somewhere under 100 milliseconds, with a standoff range of 50,000 km. Exactly how are they supposed to use active sensors when the radar pulse doesn't REACH the target in the time they have to observe it?

Well, duh. Good point. Thanks. I think I'd just been figuring they may as well, what with being so bright anyway, but yeah.

Mighty impressive work they do, hitting a darn thing.