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HFQ Official Snippet #9

This fascinating series is a combination of historical seafaring, swashbuckling adventure, and high technological science-fiction. Join us in a discussion!
Re: HFQ Official Snippet #9
Post by phillies   » Tue Oct 21, 2014 2:34 pm

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n7axw wrote:My point was really more about precision machining than precision measuring, although you obviously enough can't have the machining without the measuring.

I was in a shop one time watching a guy re-bore a 327 Chevy to 30 thousands over. The means of measurement was right on the machine and he could set it to exactly what he wanted and we stood there and watched the head go around and around, gradually working its way down. The end result was a mirror smooth cylinder wall which with a caliper measured out at exactly 30 thousands over. The pistons were small enough so there was enough "slop" to accommodate the compression rings.

He also had a valve grinder so that when everything was put back together, the compression was exactly factory standard.

The ability to do this sort of thing is what Howsmyn has been learning and getting increasingly better at.

By way of contrast, I don't think the church can manage it. They might get close enough to use leather rings with a steam engine like early steam engines did in real time. But the result of that would be that the hp would be so low that they probably would have very limited application.

As for the possibilities of back engineering the M96, it might be possible, but it would be tough. Remember Thirsk's pet wizard commenting about reproducing the Mandrayan. This would be much worse.

Not only would they have to get the barrels of the gun effectively identical. They would have get the formula for the bronze just right. They would then have to roll it out close enough so that there was very little variation in the OD of the bullets. Then there would be the business of mass manufacturing the bullets. I doubt they would have a clue on how to manage that. They would have to duplicate the magazines to hold the bullets. And I'm sure I haven't thought of everything.

It wouldn't surprise me if in HFQ we started to see assembly lines for various sizes and different levels of complication of steam engines. That would be a real game changer, wouldn't it?

Don


For a legitimate Newcomen or Watt steam engine, the period standard of precision was that you could not fit a six-shilling piece between the cylinder and the piston. Some were, of course, better.

Astonishing the useless facts you can learn at university.
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Re: HFQ Official Snippet #9
Post by Captain Igloo   » Tue Oct 21, 2014 3:25 pm

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phillies wrote:
n7axw wrote:My point was really more about precision machining than precision measuring, although you obviously enough can't have the machining without the measuring.

SNIPP

For a legitimate Newcomen or Watt steam engine, the period standard of precision was that you could not fit a six-shilling piece between the cylinder and the piston. Some were, of course, better.

Astonishing the useless facts you can learn at university.


When Watt attempted to put his device into production, he ran into the same problem that would hamper Thomas Edison more than a century later. Invention was hard enough. Harder still for Watt was finding skilled workmen to produce his engines in great number. Hardest of all was obtaining money enough to build large numbers of the engines. Initially, Watt teamed up with a fellow inventor, John Roebuck, but the immense capital needs of the piston-and-cylinder engine, particularly for its expensive precision machining, forced them into bankruptcy.

Broke and needing to put food on the table, Watt found work as a civil engineer. Blessed by fortune not once, but twice, his luck turned a decade later, in 1774. In London on routine business, he met with Birmingham industrialist Matthew Boulton, who took an interest in his work. Also in that year, gun armorer John Wilkinson perfected a method for boring cannon that met the fine tolerances demanded by the piston-and-cylinder engine. Within months, Watt and Boulton had manufactured industrial-size engines that were made with Wilkinson’s precision components. The first of these engines went to ventilate Wilkinson’s blast furnaces in repayment for the cylinders he supplied.

Nowhere did the concept of “synergy” apply better than to the interaction between steel and steam technologies. Steam improved the quantity and the quality of steel. Higher-quality steel allowed for more precise machining, as well as higher stress tolerances, of the pistons and cylinders, leading, in turn, to yet more efficient steam power.
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Re: HFQ Official Snippet #9
Post by AClone   » Tue Oct 21, 2014 3:31 pm

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Without wading though all these pages of posts--has anyone calculated just how many toops, and of what kind, Green Valley has with him? I don't have RFC's explanation of battalion, regiment, etc, sizes for the Imperial Charisian Army anywhere near--nor do I see well enough at the moment to go looking for it.
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Re: HFQ Official Snippet #9
Post by Keith_w   » Tue Oct 21, 2014 4:08 pm

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phillies wrote:For a legitimate Newcomen or Watt steam engine, the period standard of precision was that you could not fit a six-shilling piece between the cylinder and the piston. Some were, of course, better.

Astonishing the useless facts you can learn at university.


I don't think there was a 6 shilling piece. there were sixpence pieces, and there were 5 shilling pieces (known as a "crown") and a 2 shilling 6 pence piece known as half a crown, which was quite large, but I am pretty sure there weren't any 6 shilling pieces.
--
A common mistake people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools.
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Re: HFQ Official Snippet #9
Post by n7axw   » Tue Oct 21, 2014 4:30 pm

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AClone wrote:Without wading though all these pages of posts--has anyone calculated just how many toops, and of what kind, Green Valley has with him? I don't have RFC's explanation of battalion, regiment, etc, sizes for the Imperial Charisian Army anywhere near--nor do I see well enough at the moment to go looking for it.


I believe I saw a figure of 73,000 from somewhere. That may be off the top of my head, but I thought it was toward the end of LAMA.

Correction would be welcome if I've got it wrong.

Don
When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: HFQ Official Snippet #9
Post by Captain Igloo   » Tue Oct 21, 2014 4:33 pm

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Keith_w wrote:
phillies wrote:For a legitimate Newcomen or Watt steam engine, the period standard of precision was that you could not fit a six-shilling piece between the cylinder and the piston. Some were, of course, better.

Astonishing the useless facts you can learn at university.


I don't think there was a 6 shilling piece. there were sixpence pieces, and there were 5 shilling pieces (known as a "crown") and a 2 shilling 6 pence piece known as half a crown, which was quite large, but I am pretty sure there weren't any 6 shilling pieces.


As a sidenote, buyers of Boulton & Watt engines did NOT bought a complete engine - they bought a kit with instructions including all neccessary hardware (from screw bolts to fire grates), but had to assemble the engine by themselves, supply a boiler and an engine house, hire the workforce to build the "kit" and finally operate this and last were responsible for transportion issues. Each of this engines were custom machines and not two parts were assembled before they arrived on site.

Assembling required extreme precision, with the shaft set at an exact right angle to the main beam and perfectly level beneath it and the pistons needing to touch either the top or bottom of the cylinder.
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Re: HFQ Official Snippet #9
Post by anwi   » Tue Oct 21, 2014 4:37 pm

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Well, every author twists internal logic now and then in order to tell the story he needs to tell. And usually the readers don't complain. (Note that SNARCs should have been capable of sniffing out the black powder in the wheelchair used for the attack on Hector&Irys in Manchyr - must've been tetrion field interferences...)
In this case, we got the esteemed author somewhat red-handed ;).
To wit: Charisian high command has access to SNARC information. Whoever is running Desnairian naval tactics right now, he'll be monitored. Since pack tactics need coordination and approval at high command, Rock Point should have been aware of their new approach.
Then, there's OWL. He tends to provide convenient probabilities on lots of issues and shows initiative. A message like: "There's a 73% chance of losing at least one of the really important ships in the latest weapons convoy." would have been plausible.
So, ICN admiralty and inner circle should've been able to prevent such a loss at an inconvenient moment.
Moreover, the CoGA has pursued a campaign of mass murder that combines the sadistic perversion of midieval witch hunts with the slaughter of ethnic cleansing. Consequently, the EoC already kills every inquisitor it can find. So, if I'd be in the sailors shoes, I'd figure my best chance would be sinking my ship before surrendering - the Desnairians might lose interest. In fact, I'd expect that most EoC and RS units simply wouldn't consider surrendering any more - and a policy that wounded would be offered Pascale's grace in case of retreat.
Finally, it's a long way to Desnair from the likely route of the convoy. Might be we find out some of the Desnairian spoils of war found the bottom of the sea - eventually.
Summing up, this particular turn of events looks a bit suspicious to the reader, especially since RFC makes quite some effort to provide plausible explanations. But he knows, might be the Desnairians got incredibly lucky :o . However, he'd probably figured he needed that twist to further the plot. It'll be interesting to see for what.

And on something completely different, I wish RFC all the best with his back. He's on the pert side these days, I get :( ...

runsforcelery wrote:
(SNIPPED original post by AETHOR for brevity.)


I'm sorry you feel the ICN is run by idiots. Of course, you have the advantage of a little insight no one on Safehold has, don't you?

The Inner Circle was aware that the threat of commerce-raiders was growing, but the ICN's convoy tactics had been fully adequate over the last several years. You do not go around planting explosives aboard your own vessels "just in case" under those circumstances, nor do you ask your personnel to blow themselves up to prevent capture. They may choose to blow themselves up if something catastrophic happens, but that's rather a different proposition.

Look, the Desnarians have been building their privateers for a while. At the time the convoy sailed, however, they'd never adopted the "swarming" tactic they adopted against it --- certainly not in anything remotely like that strength. So what you're saying is that a navy which has successfully swept all other organized naval opposition from the seas, which has demonstrated again and again that it knows how convoy tactics work, and whose convoy escorts have succeeded against almost every attack (losses have been overwhelmingly concentrated against ships sailing alone, not in convoy) is run by idiots because it hasn't drawn up plans for its own ships to suicide just because they're carrying important cargos.

Why should they? Aside from denying the enemy the opportunity to experiment with a few thousand rifles, what would they accomplish? And what good will it do the other side to experiment with them in the dozen weeks or so they have before they get real, hands-on field experience with that those rifles can do?

Is there a single chance in hell that the Church isn't going to find out about these weapons' existence the first time they're used against it? No, there isn't. Is there a single chance in hell that they're going to be able to duplicate them in any significant numbers? No, there isn't. Is there any chance in hell that having examples of them to play with is going to allow them to envision ways in which they could be used against them which aren't already going to be demonstrated to them by BGV in the next month or so? No, there isn't. Will it break the inner circle's hearts if the bad guys are given yet another example of the reasons Charisian tech is kicking their asses on the battlefield? No, it won't. Will it be a bad thing if people like the Dohlarans (or even the Desnarians) who are already worried that ths jihad may be lost get direct, personal, hands-on confirmation that it is . . . and why? No, it won't. I'm not suggesting that the Charisians deliberately set out to hand those rifles over to the enemy. I'm simply pointing out that the "Ohmigod! What a catastrophe! thinking I seem to be seeing out of some people may be just a tad . . . excessive.

As for using galleons to ship them, please! This isn't USS Indianapolis delivering the atomic bomb to the Enola Gay. This is a bulk shipment of infantry weapons (admittedly of new and novel design) to the front for mass use against the enemy in the field, where examples are bound to be captured anyway. Efficiency of shipment is a whole hell of a lot more important than maintaining some sort of Top Secret mystery that's going to go away the moment they're used in combat anyway.

As for the vulnerability of the convoy, see my first paragraph above. The attack came as a complete surprise to the convoy commander, and the strength of the attack came as a surprise to the inner circle, and no navy has enough warships lying around to go assigning double or triple overkill to counter threats that are outside their intelligence appreciations.
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Re: HFQ Official Snippet #9
Post by Joat42   » Tue Oct 21, 2014 6:31 pm

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anwi wrote:...
Summing up, this particular turn of events looks a bit suspicious to the reader, especially since RFC makes quite some effort to provide plausible explanations. But he knows, might be the Desnairians got incredibly lucky :o . However, he'd probably figured he needed that twist to further the plot. It'll be interesting to see for what.

And on something completely different, I wish RFC all the best with his back. He's on the pert side these days, I get :( ...

The inner circle doesn't have an unlimited amount of SNARC's to their disposal which means that they can't spy on everyone and everywhere. The SNARC's are tasked to where the perceived need is the greatest and since the Desnarians so far had just been a nuisance, nobody really expected this new tactic. Even Owl need a hint where to look to be able to correlate things and if the information isn't there, there can't be any way for it to tie things together.

---
Jack of all trades and destructive tinkerer.


Anyone who have simple solutions for complex problems is a fool.
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Re: HFQ Official Snippet #9
Post by BobG   » Tue Oct 21, 2014 6:36 pm

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runsforcelery wrote:
The Inner Circle was aware that the threat of commerce-raiders was growing, but the ICN's convoy tactics had been fully adequate over the last several years. You do not go around planting explosives aboard your own vessels "just in case" under those circumstances, nor do you ask your personnel to blow themselves up to prevent capture. They may choose to blow themselves up if something catastrophic happens, but that's rather a different proposition.

After Delferak, I'm a little surprised that most Charisian sailors have not thought about being captured on an individual basis, as well as ship's officers and non-coms who have done contingency planning.

If I were on a Charisian ship that was being boarded by CoGA sailors, I would definitely want to torch the magazine when it looked hopeless.

Of course, knowing when it is hopeless is difficult to judge, but having someone standing outside the magazine with a torch might be a good idea.

-- Bob G
SF & Fantasy: The only things better than Chocolate.
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Re: HFQ Official Snippet #9
Post by n7axw   » Tue Oct 21, 2014 6:39 pm

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I think that the answer to this is that the snarcs are not all seeing and the ability to monitor and analyse stuff these days are pretty much limited to the threats the good guys know about. Desnairian "swarms" never occurred to anyone to worry about so they didn't watch for it. In a way, it was the same sort of thing as that "whoops" that occurred when Merlin almost didn't pick up on that assassination attempt on Sharleyan until too late.

I doubt that what the Desnairians are doing requires a lot of command and control. They are simply financing the ships and the crews and telling the captains to slip past the ICN and do as much damage as possible. Individual captains could arrange to get together if they make it to sea.... although if they took out of port as a swarm, they could probably overwhelm any ICN schooner they found operating as a singleton. Nasty thought, isn't it.

Don
When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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