Solarian Military Catchup Attempts

cthia wrote:One very significant area of catchup, I think, should be in traditional tactics. I have yet to see an SLN fleet manage any sort of tactics. Just brute force head butting.

So many ships should at least employ some sort of missile defense doctrine. Has the SLN ever heard of mutual ship support? I have never seen a thoughtful missile defense doctrine, even though technologically inferior. They beat themselves up. Every Manticoran fleet that encounters a Solarian fleet has the same sentiment, "boy do they fight stupidly."

Is it crazy to fight a technically superior fleet and then ignorant to fight them stupidly?

Hell, from what textev bore of SLN fleet handling, Nimitz could manage better tactics. He spent enough time aback Honor's command chair to learn something.

A large part of the reasoning for the SLN's fighting tactics (most of the reason I would say) is that none of them really knew that Manticore technology or missiles so outstripped their technology. They were counting on the number of ships and a perceived superiority of SL/SLN technology to carry the day. It wasn't until they had a few fleets savaged like they were that the leadership opened their eyes and began to really notice what some of their techs and intelligence people had been telling them.

The SLN believed its tactics, that of overwhelming numbers, could carry the day. Remember the RMN has been fighting for several decades against a very determined foe that has constantly proven it -is- capable of improving its technology to come close to matching Manticore's and in some places surpass it for a time. The SLN has never had to do that. They are stuck with the same tech from 20 years ago while the SEM and RH are using modern weapons and equipment.

Now the SLN has been in real combat and that attitude of superiority is clearly past and the SLN knows it. Now they are trying to play catch up.

Zakharra wrote:

cthia wrote:One very significant area of catchup, I think, should be in traditional tactics. I have yet to see an SLN fleet manage any sort of tactics. Just brute force head butting.

So many ships should at least employ some sort of missile defense doctrine. Has the SLN ever heard of mutual ship support? I have never seen a thoughtful missile defense doctrine, even though technologically inferior. They beat themselves up. Every Manticoran fleet that encounters a Solarian fleet has the same sentiment, "boy do they fight stupidly."

Is it crazy to fight a technically superior fleet and then ignorant to fight them stupidly?

Hell, from what textev bore of SLN fleet handling, Nimitz could manage better tactics. He spent enough time aback Honor's command chair to learn something.

A large part of the reasoning for the SLN's fighting tactics (most of the reason I would say) is that none of them really knew that Manticore technology or missiles so outstripped their technology. They were counting on the number of ships and a perceived superiority of SL/SLN technology to carry the day. It wasn't until they had a few fleets savaged like they were that the leadership opened their eyes and began to really notice what some of their techs and intelligence people had been telling them.

The SLN believed its tactics, that of overwhelming numbers, could carry the day. Remember the RMN has been fighting for several decades against a very determined foe that has constantly proven it -is- capable of improving its technology to come close to matching Manticore's and in some places surpass it for a time. The SLN has never had to do that. They are stuck with the same tech from 20 years ago while the SEM and RH are using modern weapons and equipment.

Now the SLN has been in real combat and that attitude of superiority is clearly past and the SLN knows it. Now they are trying to play catch up.

Very good point Zakharra, and quite true. However, when the SLN did attemp hardware upgrades, Aegis and an upgrade in missile range, it wasn't accompanied by the least bit packaged tactic.

Filaretta should have at least had some thoughtout tactic and displayed some spirited ship maneuvering.

I'm aware of arrogance, but come on. At least a simple, 'you circle around back and pounce when the timer ticks down.' Something. Especially taking on the Manty home system.

cthia wrote:

Zakharra wrote: A large part of the reasoning for the SLN's fighting tactics (most of the reason I would say) is that none of them really knew that Manticore technology or missiles so outstripped their technology. They were counting on the number of ships and a perceived superiority of SL/SLN technology to carry the day. It wasn't until they had a few fleets savaged like they were that the leadership opened their eyes and began to really notice what some of their techs and intelligence people had been telling them.

The SLN believed its tactics, that of overwhelming numbers, could carry the day. Remember the RMN has been fighting for several decades against a very determined foe that has constantly proven it -is- capable of improving its technology to come close to matching Manticore's and in some places surpass it for a time. The SLN has never had to do that. They are stuck with the same tech from 20 years ago while the SEM and RH are using modern weapons and equipment.

Now the SLN has been in real combat and that attitude of superiority is clearly past and the SLN knows it. Now they are trying to play catch up.

Very good point Zakharra, and quite true. However, when the SLN did attemp hardware upgrades, Aegis and an upgrade in missile range, it wasn't accompanied by the least bit packaged tactic.

Filaretta should have at least had some thoughtout tactic and displayed some spirited ship maneuvering.

I'm aware of arrogance, but come on. At least a simple, 'you circle around back and pounce when the timer ticks down.' Something. Especially taking on the Manty home system.

My impression is that the Aegis defense system is a coordinated inter-ship system. Which Manticore had already analyzed. I'm not sure what you mean by 'circle around back and pounce when the timer ticks down'. Do you mean, obey Honor's order to leave but then come right back? I'm not sure what you expect that to do.

There is not a lot that Filareta could do. There's a reason that the traditional fleet tactic was the wall of battle. Ships simply cannot maneuver enough to dodge incoming missiles at 96,000 gees. There was no tactic for Filareta to take. The only things he had was overwhelming numbers (or so he thought) and missiles with comparable range to Manticore's (or so he thought).

cthia wrote:...

Filaretta should have at least had some thoughtout tactic and displayed some spirited ship maneuvering.

I'm aware of arrogance, but come on. At least a simple, 'you circle around back and pounce when the timer ticks down.' Something. Especially taking on the Manty home system.

SLN isn't know for it's meritocracy, what it's known for is it's nepotism and political appointments; in other words, even an idiot can reach the lofty position of Fleet Admiral through enough bribery, back-scratching and family connections. Even RMN have had their problems with that type of people which we have seen.

cthia wrote:

Zakharra wrote: A large part of the reasoning for the SLN's fighting tactics (most of the reason I would say) is that none of them really knew that Manticore technology or missiles so outstripped their technology. They were counting on the number of ships and a perceived superiority of SL/SLN technology to carry the day. It wasn't until they had a few fleets savaged like they were that the leadership opened their eyes and began to really notice what some of their techs and intelligence people had been telling them.

The SLN believed its tactics, that of overwhelming numbers, could carry the day. Remember the RMN has been fighting for several decades against a very determined foe that has constantly proven it -is- capable of improving its technology to come close to matching Manticore's and in some places surpass it for a time. The SLN has never had to do that. They are stuck with the same tech from 20 years ago while the SEM and RH are using modern weapons and equipment.

Now the SLN has been in real combat and that attitude of superiority is clearly past and the SLN knows it. Now they are trying to play catch up.

Very good point Zakharra, and quite true. However, when the SLN did attemp hardware upgrades, Aegis and an upgrade in missile range, it wasn't accompanied by the least bit packaged tactic.

Filaretta should have at least had some thoughtout tactic and displayed some spirited ship maneuvering.

I'm aware of arrogance, but come on. At least a simple, 'you circle around back and pounce when the timer ticks down.' Something. Especially taking on the Manty home system.

A large part of a nation's armed forces ability to do well in battle is experience and a LOT of training. The SLN has had neither for a long time. This shows in the battles they have fought recently when reality popped up to wallop the SLN (those that survived) across the face again and again. But remember this, even Filaretta didn't believe the reports on the range or accuracy of the RMN's missiles. He still believed that the new missiles his fleet had gotten would negate enough of Manticore's advantage that his fleet would stand a good chance of winning.

That being said, he was rational enough he did make some plans in case they were true and would have surrendered if the bomb hadn't gone off in the flag bridge. But he still believed that the SLN wasn't that much outclassed and like many SLN officers tended to believe the other SLN officers that had surrendered did so out of cowardice rather than fight and win like the SLN expected to.

I imagine now that there are a lot of SLN officers, those that are thinking, are looking for ways to update and improve the SLNs tactics with the equipment they have.

cthia wrote:

Zakharra wrote:
A large part of the reasoning for the SLN's fighting tactics (most of the reason I would say) is that none of them really knew that Manticore technology or missiles so outstripped their technology. They were counting on the number of ships and a perceived superiority of SL/SLN technology to carry the day. It wasn't until they had a few fleets savaged like they were that the leadership opened their eyes and began to really notice what some of their techs and intelligence people had been telling them.

The SLN believed its tactics, that of overwhelming numbers, could carry the day. Remember the RMN has been fighting for several decades against a very determined foe that has constantly proven it -is- capable of improving its technology to come close to matching Manticore's and in some places surpass it for a time. The SLN has never had to do that. They are stuck with the same tech from 20 years ago while the SEM and RH are using modern weapons and equipment.

Now the SLN has been in real combat and that attitude of superiority is clearly past and the SLN knows it. Now they are trying to play catch up.

Very good point Zakharra, and quite true. However, when the SLN did attemp hardware upgrades, Aegis and an upgrade in missile range, it wasn't accompanied by the least bit packaged tactic.

Filaretta should have at least had some thoughtout tactic and displayed some spirited ship maneuvering.

I'm aware of arrogance, but come on. At least a simple, 'you circle around back and pounce when the timer ticks down.' Something. Especially taking on the Manty home system.

[quite="SWM"]
My impression is that the Aegis defense system is a coordinated inter-ship system. Which Manticore had already analyzed. I'm not sure what you mean by 'circle around back and pounce when the timer ticks down'. Do you mean, obey Honor's order to leave but then come right back? I'm not sure what you expect that to do.

There is not a lot that Filareta could do. There's a reason that the traditional fleet tactic was the wall of battle. Ships simply cannot maneuver enough to dodge incoming missiles at 96,000 gees. There was no tactic for Filareta to take. The only things he had was overwhelming numbers (or so he thought) and missiles with comparable range to Manticore's (or so he thought).[/quote]
Sorry about the "go around the back reference," it was more a frustrated joke at the lack of any kind of tactics by the SLN. And undoubtedly, Honor, McQueen, White Haven, Theisman, Giscard, Terekov exhibited tactical prowess that has apoiled me.

****** *

Aegis was a missile defense technology developed by the Solarian League Navy.
Vaunted as a revolutionary improvement in missile defense, the Aegis system essentially amounted to the removal of additional broadside missile tubes from the already light missile broadsides of Solarian warships and replacing them with additional phased array radar units for missile tracking. Two more missile tubes would then be used to launch canisters of counter missiles that would thicken the warship's broadsides of counter missiles. The system was considered ineffectual by other navies such as the Royal Manticoran Navy. (CS2, HH12)

You are correct about the Aegis system, but it strikes me as more an attritional defense system, more brute force, that still beckons superior ship handling to be effective. IIRC, Honor commented on that fact, that the separation of SLN ships could be much tighter, would be much tighter had it been Havenite ships. In other words, the SLN still relied on the brute force application of Aegis and no supporting ship handling.

Aside:
The "you go around back reference," was a dry attempt at humor. Imagine 'Law and Order' or 'Cops.'

cthia wrote:You are correct about the Aegis system, but it strikes me as more an attritional defense system, more brute force, that still beckons superior ship handling to be effective. IIRC, Honor commented on that fact, that the separation of SLN ships could be much tighter, would be much tighter had it been Havenite ships. In other words, the SLN still relied on the brute force application of Aegis and no supporting ship handling.

No, that does not suggest that they relied on brute force application of Aegis. It suggests that the Solarian League did not have as much experience in maneuvering in tight formations as Manticore and Haven did. They had twenty years of experience in pitched battle, which the League did not have. The text notes, through the series, how Havenite formations improved over the course of the war. No other navy in the galaxy can maneuver the way Manticore and Haven do. I'm sure that Filareta and his commanders believed that they were maneuvering in tight formations.

Aside:
The "you go around back reference," was a dry attempt at humor. Imagine 'Law and Order' or 'Cops.'

Ah.

cthia wrote:You are correct about the Aegis system, but it strikes me as more an attritional defense system, more brute force, that still beckons superior ship handling to be effective. IIRC, Honor commented on that fact, that the separation of SLN ships could be much tighter, would be much tighter had it been Havenite ships. In other words, the SLN still relied on the brute force application of Aegis and no supporting ship handling.

Aside:
The "you go around back reference," was a dry attempt at humor. Imagine 'Law and Order' or 'Cops.'

I see your point, but the flip side is that they aren't practiced in that. There's a big risk to tight formations, and that's the reason that early in the first Havenite war the Peep formations were looser than RMN ones.

If you get the wedges too close both your ships suffer catastrophic damage. If you're lucky it only blows your nodes and shreds impeller rooms. But even that leaves you coasting through space, virtually defenseless, and almost unable to manouver. (And you were in a tight formation, so now the other ships still accelerating along at relatively close range at several hundred g have to manouver radically (and instantly) to avoid smearing your crippled ships with their wedges (which would finish the destruction and near total loss of crew)

The SLN, which didn't consider missiles an existential threat, probably ran numbers and found that they'd lose way more ships and crew to routine peacetime training accidents than they could every hope to save even by utilizing the tightest formations possible.


It takes time to reverse that, and get people trained and practiced in how to (relatively) safely fly in such dangerously close quarters. I'm not at all surprised that they hadn't made any progress before Fileretta set out. (And don't forget he never had a chance to order his fleet into combat formation, or pick tactics. He got taken out and the missiles launched before really setting up for a fight. So we don't really know if he'd planned any improved tactics -- I'd guess no; but that's just a guess)

Hi Zakharra,

Regarding those SL officers trying to update and improve their tactics with the equipment they have:

"Rots o' ruck!"

The vast majority of the SLN officers are still in denial, according to the thinking FF ones we've seen, and probably will be until BF is easily destroyed.

So what tactics do you have in mind?

L

Zakharra wrote:

cthia wrote:*quote="Zakharra"*
A large part of the reasoning for the SLN's fighting tactics (most of the reason I would say) is that none of them really knew that Manticore technology or missiles so outstripped their technology. They were counting on the number of ships and a perceived superiority of SL/SLN technology to carry the day. It wasn't until they had a few fleets savaged like they were that the leadership opened their eyes and began to really notice what some of their techs and intelligence people had been telling them.

The SLN believed its tactics, that of overwhelming numbers, could carry the day. Remember the RMN has been fighting for several decades against a very determined foe that has constantly proven it -is- capable of improving its technology to come close to matching Manticore's and in some places surpass it for a time. The SLN has never had to do that. They are stuck with the same tech from 20 years ago while the SEM and RH are using modern weapons and equipment.

Now the SLN has been in real combat and that attitude of superiority is clearly past and the SLN knows it. Now they are trying to play catch up.*quote*
Very good point Zakharra, and quite true. However, when the SLN did attemp hardware upgrades, Aegis and an upgrade in missile range, it wasn't accompanied by the least bit packaged tactic.

Filaretta should have at least had some thoughtout tactic and displayed some spirited ship maneuvering.

I'm aware of arrogance, but come on. At least a simple, 'you circle around back and pounce when the timer ticks down.' Something. Especially taking on the Manty home system.

A large part of a nation's armed forces ability to do well in battle is experience and a LOT of training. The SLN has had neither for a long time. This shows in the battles they have fought recently when reality popped up to wallop the SLN (those that survived) across the face again and again. But remember this, even Filaretta didn't believe the reports on the range or accuracy of the RMN's missiles. He still believed that the new missiles his fleet had gotten would negate enough of Manticore's advantage that his fleet would stand a good chance of winning.

That being said, he was rational enough he did make some plans in case they were true and would have surrendered if the bomb hadn't gone off in the flag bridge. But he still believed that the SLN wasn't that much outclassed and like many SLN officers tended to believe the other SLN officers that had surrendered did so out of cowardice rather than fight and win like the SLN expected to.

I imagine now that there are a lot of SLN officers, those that are thinking, are looking for ways to update and improve the SLNs tactics with the equipment they have.

lyonheart wrote:Hi Zakharra,

Regarding those SL officers trying to update and improve their tactics with the equipment they have:

"Rots o' ruck!"

The vast majority of the SLN officers are still in denial, according to the thinking FF ones we've seen, and probably will be until BF is easily destroyed.

So what tactics do you have in mind?

L

Zakharra wrote:
A large part of a nation's armed forces ability to do well in battle is experience and a LOT of training. The SLN has had neither for a long time. This shows in the battles they have fought recently when reality popped up to wallop the SLN (those that survived) across the face again and again. But remember this, even Filaretta didn't believe the reports on the range or accuracy of the RMN's missiles. He still believed that the new missiles his fleet had gotten would negate enough of Manticore's advantage that his fleet would stand a good chance of winning.

That being said, he was rational enough he did make some plans in case they were true and would have surrendered if the bomb hadn't gone off in the flag bridge. But he still believed that the SLN wasn't that much outclassed and like many SLN officers tended to believe the other SLN officers that had surrendered did so out of cowardice rather than fight and win like the SLN expected to.

I imagine now that there are a lot of SLN officers, those that are thinking, are looking for ways to update and improve the SLNs tactics with the equipment they have.

For those that are thinking, its already starting. Pushing for more and new R&D, using smaller ships to do commerce raiding (which is a damned good idea even with the losses the SLN would have. Their biggest problem there will be supporting that many ships so far away), jump starting the SLN authorized shipyards to start building smaller warships. Also I think they are looking at Technodyne's missiles and looking to buy more/get the plans so they can build more.

Another thing they could do is practice formation flying in small groups at first, then larger ones. Get the SLN used to doing it. I'd also think that they are thinking about system defenses; SDFs and static missile launchers/pods that can easily survive near nuclear blasts. Given that they can be stationed in space and that the GA and SL/SLN both have tech that can stay in system for months/years with little adverse effects from solar radiation/flares and such, unless a nuke goes off almost on top of it, I can't see it being that difficult or expensive to EMP hardening missile pods. After all how is a magaton nuclear bomb going off nearby worse than a massive solar flare?

There's numerous ways they could do to improve their tactics, but until they can improve their tech, it is admittedly very limited in what they can do with tactics. Now if the SLN could find a way to block the FTL Apollo transmissions.. that could help a lot.

Another thing to note, not even the RMN is sure what will happen when they encounter someone who can use the same sort of tech they have, ie Apollo guided missile storms. I remember someone saying that they think when that happens, the casualties are going to be horrendous.


The biggest question though is is the SL going to survive long enough to get any new ships and tech into operation. /shakes ball

The Magic 8-Ball says: Doubtful.