Solarian Military Catchup Attempts

Theemile wrote:

Carl wrote:Bear in Scotty did mention way back that he figured Haven could match capacitor powered MDM's with off the shelf component's. Like he said they'd be bloody big things, but in a system defense role at least that's not so important. And even on the offense the SLN technically has the numbers to match the GA to a large degree via huge numbers of ships to make up for the limited pod loads per ship. Hell if they do that, a 2 to 3 shot pod would probably be pininnce sized letting you put a piniance fusion plant on it and tractor.

Carl, Pinnances are only 2-3 x the size of a capitol missile, or about the same size as a Capacitor MDM. The Pinnance fusion plant has enough juice to move 250 tons @500g, which is probably 1/20th the power needed to move the same sized object at 96000g. A the output of a pinnance/shuttle type fusion reactor (laser fused) is a magnitude too low to be used in a missile.

My suggestion was predicated on the very early explanation that impeller drives in general can inherently accel at enormous rates. As I understand it, it is the sensitivity of the payload within the wedge (often - people), and sometimes the need for stealth, which constrain the accel rates of impeller drives.

I am suggesting that a star nation which could not build adequate multi-drive missiles, of missile-size, with missile drives, to match the total battlespace domination of their opponent, might resort to building missiles of drone or cutter-size or greater, with the hunkiest possible CRAFT drives, or the tiniest possible SHIP drives, no compensators, and governor settings limited only by the structural integrity of the materials. These missiles would be near-useless for conventional warship deployment, but could be proposed/fielded for system defense, and might be transportable by some sort of 'arsenal ship' (ala Battle of Torch) for some types of distant confrontations.

One thing about such a bloated missile. It would take a lot of approach losses, but you'd have a lot of room for AI, ECM, and warhead. Best use would probably be as some sort of super-Cataphract.

Key problem, which I don't think we can know the answer to without Bu9 or MWW commentary, is whether the unlocked accel of such a large device could be enough to compensate for the necessarily reduced density and the somewhat easier CM target profile.

Please - I'm not wedded to this monstrosity. I just think it may be a possible desperation ploy stopgap weapon, if the Honorverse physics/tech allows it.

I love the discussion of this so far.

dreamrider

Zakharra wrote:
Did he address why you can't make a CM the size of a capital missile? Since CMs use their wedges (I believe) as their weapon, why not supersized more powerful CMs?

There's no reason why you can't build a CM the size of a capital missile, or a system-defence missile for that matter. However, there's no real reason to do so. You'd probably get a larger wedge, but the missile would be 5-10 times the size and mass of a conventional CM, so your defensive ammunition load would be cut by 80-90%. It's not a good trade.

That is a thought. Essentially all the missiles are based on the use of a compensator, which is part of the drive. Which is also why they burn out. Say you decide that you are going to build your giant missile using electronics as tough as are used in Excaliber GPS guided artillery rounds or the proximity fuzes used in the M830A1 tank gun round. These operate after experiencing several 10,000 of thousands of gravities. So what you have is a single stage missile without a compensator of any kind, with an endurance based on power, not impeller burnout. And your capacitor/reactor only needs to bring up the wedge once, but can infinitely vary the thrust from zero to multiple tens of thousands of gravities. I would tend to suspect that sort of behavior would drive the anti-missile targeting programs completely nuts.

Dafmeister wrote:

Zakharra wrote:
Did he address why you can't make a CM the size of a capital missile? Since CMs use their wedges (I believe) as their weapon, why not supersized more powerful CMs?

There's no reason why you can't build a CM the size of a capital missile, or a system-defence missile for that matter. However, there's no real reason to do so. You'd probably get a larger wedge, but the missile would be 5-10 times the size and mass of a conventional CM, so your defensive ammunition load would be cut by 80-90%. It's not a good trade.

Isn't the compensator capability inversely related to volume? That might be a good reason to have an acceleration hardened missile or CM with no compensator. Wonder just how hardened such could be?

Dafmeister wrote:

Zakharra wrote:
Did he address why you can't make a CM the size of a capital missile? Since CMs use their wedges (I believe) as their weapon, why not supersized more powerful CMs?

There's no reason why you can't build a CM the size of a capital missile, or a system-defence missile for that matter. However, there's no real reason to do so. You'd probably get a larger wedge, but the missile would be 5-10 times the size and mass of a conventional CM, so your defensive ammunition load would be cut by 80-90%. It's not a good trade.

That's about what I thought. I can see that being a good argument (a very good one) for not making and putting them on ships. System defense though might be a different story. Without the need to carry them onboard ships, they might have a viable part in system defense roles. You can stack/preposition them where you need them and in some lower tech systems, or those not up to the standard or ability to make lots of regular CMs, they might be able to churn out hundreds to thousands of these monsters. They might be lower tech, but in a way more capable and come as a nasty surprise to any attacker. Especially if you can get them flying close enough together (layered and stacked) no regular capital missile could slip through.

From what I understand about counter missiles (CM)s, their weapon is their wedge. They have no warhead like capital missiles. This is why I am wondering if a form of system defense capital missile sized CM isn't possible. You could use the space the warhead might have been for added power and nodes.

I'm just shotgunning an idea here. I'm sure there are all sorts of technological difficulties and more than a few ways around it.

You misunderstood me. What i was suggesting was that if they build super sized off the shelf capacitor fed 3 stage MDM, (which Scotty said they could do), and then use really out-sized pods to hold them. If those pods where large enough they could use a pinniance sized fusion plant on the pod to power a tractor system to limpet the pod to the hull. Sure they'd probably be lucky to fit a fifth as many missiles each half as capable as manticores on any given ship. But it would still be a massive improvement, (especially given the number of ships the SLN has), over what they can do now.

Carl wrote:You misunderstood me. What i was suggesting was that if they build super sized off the shelf capacitor fed 3 stage MDM, (which Scotty said they could do), and then use really out-sized pods to hold them. If those pods where large enough they could use a pinniance sized fusion plant on the pod to power a tractor system to limpet the pod to the hull. Sure they'd probably be lucky to fit a fifth as many missiles each half as capable as manticores on any given ship. But it would still be a massive improvement, (especially given the number of ships the SLN has), over what they can do now.

Just because Scotty speculated that Haven could do it (which they did), with Erehwon tech transfers and info/materiel captures from Manticore, and gobs of performance and signature data does not translate into the SL doing it any time soon. The MAlign has been working on the concept for a lo-ong time, according to Ben Detweiler, basically since Manticore first demonstrated the capability in the field (or slightly before), and they THINK they might be getting an inkling.

dreamrider

One very significant area of catchup, I think, should be in traditional tactics. I have yet to see an SLN fleet manage any sort of tactics. Just brute force head butting.

So many ships should at least employ some sort of missile defense doctrine. Has the SLN ever heard of mutual ship support? I have never seen a thoughtful missile defense doctrine, even though technologically inferior. They beat themselves up. Every Manticoran fleet that encounters a Solarian fleet has the same sentiment, "boy do they fight stupidly."

Is it crazy to fight a technically superior fleet and then ignorant to fight them stupidly?

Hell, from what textev bore of SLN fleet handling, Nimitz could manage better tactics. He spent enough time aback Honor's command chair to learn something.

cthia wrote:One very significant area of catchup, I think, should be in traditional tactics. I have yet to see an SLN fleet manage any sort of tactics. Just brute force head butting.

So many ships should at least employ some sort of missile defense doctrine. Has the SLN ever heard of mutual ship support? I have never seen a thoughtful missile defense doctrine, even though technologically inferior. They beat themselves up. Every Manticoran fleet that encounters a Solarian fleet has the same sentiment, "boy do they fight stupidly."

Is it crazy to fight a technically superior fleet and then ignorant to fight them stupidly?

Hell, from what textev bore of SLN fleet handling, Nimitz could manage better tactics. He spent enough time aback Honor's command chair to learn something.

As far as I understand it, the Manticore - Haven war pushed technology from primary engagements of energy weapons to missile slugging. SLN is still using the energy weapon doctrine and missiles is just used to soften the targets. (If I'm wrong about this, can someone please slap me with the nearest nerf bat. )

cthia wrote:One very significant area of catchup, I think, should be in traditional tactics. I have yet to see an SLN fleet manage any sort of tactics. Just brute force head butting.

So many ships should at least employ some sort of missile defense doctrine. Has the SLN ever heard of mutual ship support? I have never seen a thoughtful missile defense doctrine, even though technologically inferior. They beat themselves up. Every Manticoran fleet that encounters a Solarian fleet has the same sentiment, "boy do they fight stupidly."

Is it crazy to fight a technically superior fleet and then ignorant to fight them stupidly?

Hell, from what textev bore of SLN fleet handling, Nimitz could manage better tactics. He spent enough time aback Honor's command chair to learn something.

On the other hand, there is always the line of people paying superb amounts of money to sell their ultratech to the fleet. Gatlingswerke AG point defense supercannon are happy to supply supporting information that the reason ISLN missile defense failed is that these countermissiles can never compete with the man's weapon, the point defense gatling. And the gatlings worked perfectly in tests, thanks to the wise decision to invest not in improved tracking but in larger bribes for the Chief Petty Officers.