HFQ Official Snippet #9

Well James, the bolt actions can be copied. The problem is even using the parts from the captured M96's as templates, many multiples of different human hands cannot quickly those pieces. The time required to copy those pieces without powered stamping tools would make the finished product an expensive rich man's toy.

Making ammo runs into the same problem. Muscle powered presses and drawing tools can only work so fast. The amount of labor required to make 1 round of ammo would make creating useful volumes cost prohibitive. Given the labor requirements, I hope the CoGA does try to replicate the weapons. The small but non- trivial variations in both rounds and the rifle will cause jams and misfires. The amount labor, money and most importantly time needed to manufacture the required numbers would mean very little else is produced.

JRM wrote:
Hi Peter,

I don't agree. What was said is that without standardization of measurements, the parts from one "manufactory" would not fit with another. With 5,000 M96 rifles, they can use actual working parts as templates. If they spread the parts to suppliers, and require the manufactured parts to be identical within the margin of difference that Zhwaigair measured with the earlier rifles, they probably can make their own rifles.

As for cartridges, the only thing that was new technology with the cartridges, was the design and the creation of machinery to do the manufacturing process.

If they captured a steam engine then they will be able to bypass, design steps, stress calculation, testing, and go straight to manufacturing. They already captured the Charis' current steel making process.

James

Hi Peter,

Go back and read what Zhwaigair had to say. He said, they could create the machinery, jigs, and stamps, but that they couldn't standardize with other factories. With this many samples, they don't need standardized measuring units, because if they duplicate a template and the shop down the street duplicates an identical template then they can create interchangeable parts.

If they can create machinery to create rifle parts, they can create machinery to make cartridges.

They don't have to go through the research and development to build a new industrial base. All they need to do is copy what Charis has already done. If they don't have spies in Charis, they do have spies in Siddarmark.

James

PeterZ wrote:Well James, the bolt actions can be copied. The problem is even using the parts from the captured M96's as templates, many multiples of different human hands cannot quickly those pieces. The time required to copy those pieces without powered stamping tools would make the finished product an expensive rich man's toy.

Making ammo runs into the same problem. Muscle powered presses and drawing tools can only work so fast. The amount of labor required to make 1 round of ammo would make creating useful volumes cost prohibitive. Given the labor requirements, I hope the CoGA does try to replicate the weapons. The small but non- trivial variations in both rounds and the rifle will cause jams and misfires. The amount labor, money and most importantly time needed to manufacture the required numbers would mean very little else is produced.

JRM wrote:
Hi Peter,

I don't agree. What was said is that without standardization of measurements, the parts from one "manufactory" would not fit with another. With 5,000 M96 rifles, they can use actual working parts as templates. If they spread the parts to suppliers, and require the manufactured parts to be identical within the margin of difference that Zhwaigair measured with the earlier rifles, they probably can make their own rifles.

As for cartridges, the only thing that was new technology with the cartridges, was the design and the creation of machinery to do the manufacturing process.

If they captured a steam engine then they will be able to bypass, design steps, stress calculation, testing, and go straight to manufacturing. They already captured the Charis' current steel making process.

James

PeterZ wrote:Well James, the bolt actions can be copied. The problem is even using the parts from the captured M96's as templates, many multiples of different human hands cannot quickly those pieces. The time required to copy those pieces without powered stamping tools would make the finished product an expensive rich man's toy.

Making ammo runs into the same problem. Muscle powered presses and drawing tools can only work so fast. The amount of labor required to make 1 round of ammo would make creating useful volumes cost prohibitive. Given the labor requirements, I hope the CoGA does try to replicate the weapons. The small but non- trivial variations in both rounds and the rifle will cause jams and misfires. The amount labor, money and most importantly time needed to manufacture the required numbers would mean very little else is produced.

JRM wrote:
Hi Peter,

I don't agree. What was said is that without standardization of measurements, the parts from one "manufactory" would not fit with another. With 5,000 M96 rifles, they can use actual working parts as templates. If they spread the parts to suppliers, and require the manufactured parts to be identical within the margin of difference that Zhwaigair measured with the earlier rifles, they probably can make their own rifles.

As for cartridges, the only thing that was new technology with the cartridges, was the design and the creation of machinery to do the manufacturing process.

If they captured a steam engine then they will be able to bypass, design steps, stress calculation, testing, and go straight to manufacturing. They already captured the Charis' current steel making process.

James

Peter is right on this one. The key to understanding the church's problem here has two parts, uniform measurements and precision machine work, neither of which the curch can do, both of which took Charis years to develop even with Merlin's help---the difference between a crude manufactoring capacity and a modern one that can produce such things as steam engines and the M96s.

Don

JRM wrote:Hi Peter,

Go back and read what Zhwaigair had to say. He said, they could create the machinery, jigs, and stamps, but that they couldn't standardize with other factories. With this many samples, they don't need standardized measuring units, because if they duplicate a template and the shop down the street duplicates an identical template then they can create interchangeable parts.

If they can create machinery to create rifle parts, they can create machinery to make cartridges.

They don't have to go through the research and development to build a new industrial base. All they need to do is copy what Charis has already done. If they don't have spies in Charis, they do have spies in Siddarmark.

James

In that passage, James, Zwaigair mentioned that the products from the same shop might or might not be interchangeable. That shop would use the same templates to make their jigs yet still not be interchangeable. Now toss in the brass rounds. The drawing machines for the brass have to produce nearly identical tubes. Sure they know how to make brass and copper pipe in quantity. For plumbing, tubes that don't fit exactly can be fitted together and soldered. Different enough drawing machines that produce tubes with big enough variances in their dimensions can produce cartridges that can fit in the chamber of the rifle but are different enough to jam or misfire. The more use the rifle gets the more likely these issues will come up.

Yes, these issues can be avoided with sufficient diligence and care. That takes time and money. To truly replicate the automated system of Howsmyn with the labor intensive system of the mainland, requires so much time and training that it would be a like one master gunsmith making every single piece from a common design. Even then it would take weeks or months per gun.

I agree with you that an argument might be made that the less than knowledgeable aristos of the mainland might just try to replicate the bolt action rifles. That would be such a resource suck that charis would be more helped than hindered.

n7axw wrote:
Peter is right on this one. The key to understanding the church's problem here has two parts, uniform measurements and precision machine work, neither of which the curch can do, both of which took Charis years to develop even with Merlin's help---the difference between a crude manufactoring capacity and a modern one that can produce such things as steam engines and the M96s.

Don

Hi Don,

I will add this quote from RFC:

It should be noted, however, that this same metric indicates that 12 workers in a Mainland manufactory could equal the production of one worker in a Howsmyn manufactory, and the Mainland still has a vast advantage in total manpower.

In addition, notice that both Zhwaigair and Brother Lynkyn Fultyn were capable of measuring the difference in parts that had been machined to a tolerance. At Zhwaigair's demonstration, Thirsk acknowledges the reassembled rifle's crisp action was not as silky smooth as his fowling pieces. The church's shops are capable of precision. What they had not been capable of was standardization. The captured parts become the standard.

James

AirTech wrote:

Henry Brown wrote:Something I have been nagging at me for the last day or two since I read this: Why would a Charisan merchant ship allow themself to be boarded?

In a regular conflict, sure. The merchant ship is taken as a prize and the crew is held till either exchanged or until the war ends. But this war is not a regular conflict where the rules of war are being observed. This is a holy war in which all Charisans have been declared as heretics. Right now, the best outcome for Charisan seamen in the event of being captured is a quick execution (which is what the snippet says happened to the crews of the captured ships). The other possible fate is being put to the question and dying slowly and with great pain.

So, if your possible outcomes are either 1. A summary execution or 2. Slow death by torture, then why surrender at all? If your merchant ship is armed, then fight to the death. If unarmed, why not scuttle your ship to prevent capture?

Or set a scuttling charge big enough to take out your attacker. (Scuttling a sailing ship without bilge penetrations for an engine or toilet involves hacking a hole in the bottom with a chisel - a couple of hours work at best, or a sizable explosive charge).

You could use axes to chop a hole in much less time than with a chisel. Or better yet, blow the magazine as you suggest to take the boarding ship with you. That is an idea that did not occur to me.

PeterZ wrote:In that passage, James, Zwaigair mentioned that the products from the same shop might or might not be interchangeable. That shop would use the same templates to make their jigs yet still not be interchangeable. Now toss in the brass rounds. The drawing machines for the brass have to produce nearly identical tubes. Sure they know how to make brass and copper pipe in quantity. For plumbing, tubes that don't fit exactly can be fitted together and soldered. Different enough drawing machines that produce tubes with big enough variances in their dimensions can produce cartridges that can fit in the chamber of the rifle but are different enough to jam or misfire. The more use the rifle gets the more likely these issues will come up.

Yes, these issues can be avoided with sufficient diligence and care. That takes time and money. To truly replicate the automated system of Howsmyn with the labor intensive system of the mainland, requires so much time and training that it would be a like one master gunsmith making every single piece from a common design. Even then it would take weeks or months per gun.

I agree with you that an argument might be made that the less than knowledgeable aristos of the mainland might just try to replicate the bolt action rifles. That would be such a resource suck that charis would be more helped than hindered.

Hi Peter,

The reason that the Tiger economies of the Pacific rim grew so quickly is that they didn't have to develop their technology, they bought it. They bought the most current technology, and their productivity gains were fantastic, because they skipped intermediate steps. Siddarmark's manufacturing is going to grow at a rapid rate for the same reason. What makes you and Don think that the Church can't steal and apply the technology that Charis is transferring to Siddarmark?

Does RFC have to transfer Shannon Foraker to Dolar?

James

JRM wrote:
Hi Peter,

The reason that the Tiger economies of the Pacific rim grew so quickly is that they didn't have to develop their technology, they bought it. They bought the most current technology, and their productivity gains were fantastic, because they skipped intermediate steps. Siddarmark's manufacturing is going to grow at a rapid rate for the same reason. What makes you and Don think that the Church can't steal and apply the technology that Charis is transferring to Siddarmark?

Does RFC have to transfer Shannon Foraker to Dolar?

James

You misunderstand, James. I believe both Don and I expect the mainland to steal the tech and processes of Charis. We don't believe that mass production and precision is possible UNLESS the mainland adopts standardization and powered tools. Recall that Howsmyn used the accumulators before transitioning to pneumatics.

So eventually the mainland can produce the bolt action and sufficient ammo to be useful. They can't do that now. If they try to produce them with their current non-standardized processes, they sick up more resources for this project than the output would justify.

Henry Brown wrote:Something that has been nagging at me for the last day or two since I read this: Why would a Charisan merchant ship allow themself to be boarded?

In a regular conflict, sure. The merchant ship is taken as a prize and the crew is held till either exchanged or until the war ends. But this war is not a regular conflict where the rules of war are being observed. This is a holy war in which all Charisans have been declared as heretics. Right now, the best outcome for Charisan seamen in the event of being captured is a quick execution (which is what the snippet says happened to the crews of the captured ships). The other possible fate is being put to the question and dying slowly and with great pain.

So, if your possible outcomes are either 1. A summary execution or 2. Slow death by torture, then why surrender at all? If your merchant ship is armed, then fight to the death. If unarmed, why not scuttle your ship to prevent capture?
*edited once

yup - that had occurred to me too - in fact I suggested same thing in the thread on snippet 8! - great minds and all that
http://forums.davidweber.net/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=6316&start=70

PeterZ wrote:
You misunderstand, James. I believe both Don and I expect the mainland to steal the tech and processes of Charis. We don't believe that mass production and precision is possible UNLESS the mainland adopts standardization and powered tools. Recall that Howsmyn used the accumulators before transitioning to pneumatics.

So eventually the mainland can produce the bolt action and sufficient ammo to be useful. They can't do that now. If they try to produce them with their current non-standardized processes, they sick up more resources for this project than the output would justify.

Hi Peter,

LAMA Sept 896 Ch IV Page 228 paragraph 3.

Fultyn was constantly looking at processes, concepts, new ideas, while Bryairs was focused on the most efficient way to accomplish any given task. The proliferation of water-power machinery, the emulation of the "hydro-reservoirs" the heretics had devised, and an unceasing effort to find more efficient ways to combine the labor of St. Kylmahn's workforce were all passions of his.

James