Who is Underdog?

Thanks Lyonheart.

Forked from the Battle of Manticore - am I the only one?

Who do you perceive as the underdog and why? Both regarding RMN/Haven, RMN/SLN?

Email from Anastasia. Romanian.

Hello #######,
I do not know if your relation of Stockholm Syndrome to the discussion was meant to be a funny or not but we all think it actually has merit. Who is real underdog?, shall elicit a subjective response. We must consider the vast intimacy afforded the reader regarding Haven that allows the reader to possibly identify with Haven's cause - falling within the realm of the Stockholm Syndrome. Perhaps a study should be funded on other applications of this syndrome outside of captors. Perhaps captivity can be extended to the idea of freedom and safety. Look at what is happening with Isis. Could it be, beyond stupidity, that teenage kids from many countries seeking to join having cause within Stockholm Syndrome?

Regarding the Solarian League, who is actual underdog there? Why does not anyone empathize with the Solarians? Is it simply because the hate factor overrides the Stockholm Syndrome mechanism or is it less complicated, such as a lack of intimacy afforded the reader from missing windows into their lives as personal and telling as has been for Haven? Would storyline into the love lives of SLN officers serve to condition our minds toward empathy even for the SLN?

A.

Aside:
The kid in me just couldn't resist this.
http://youtu.be/xhvZYULhy3Y

Cthia,

Welcome back. I hope your return will remain permanent.

With respect to your question, at the First Battle of Manticore both sides were underdogs, in the sense both sides had potentially fatal disadvantages and included likeable characters. With respect to the Manticore Turkey Shoot the SLN may have been the underdog but had no particular sympathetic qualities.

That great SF Editor the late John Campbell once had an editorial on what he believed to be an American cultural defect. He even gave it a name: hyperinfracaniphilia, excessive and irrational love of the underdog.

The SLN at this point really does not qualify as an underdog other than in the dubious nature of the ships of the Invincible Solarian league Navy.

One might find interesting a set of offshoot stories that may never really connect with the main theme, namely a star nation well outside the area of interest of the OFS that was run by people as competent as Manticore but without their natural trade advantages. One might also find a nation on a planet in which the response to "boo hoo we do not have the money for a good educational computer system" was "we have plenty of chalk and slate, and that was good enough for Einstein and Buckley." Those might be interesting underdogs.

Perhaps I am wandering too far from your question.

My opinion, for what it's worth:

First Havenite War, the underdog is Manticore.

Second Havenite War, the underdog is Haven, even though they started the war. They knew they still hadn't matched Manticore in skill, and were hoping to pull off a quick strike to achieve their ends. It's a case where the underdog didn't win the battle, but ultimately won the peace.

Solarian War, I'm not sure whether there is an underdog. If there is, it would be Manticore. The Solarian League is not an underdog--it is an oversized bully (being urged from the sidelines by mysterious people) who didn't realize the scrawny kid could stand up for himself.

Who is Underdog?

That would be Shoe Shine Boy.

phillies wrote:
Cthia,

Welcome back. I hope your return will remain permanent.

With respect to your question, at the First Battle of Manticore both sides were underdogs, in the sense both sides had potentially fatal disadvantages and included likeable characters. With respect to the Manticore Turkey Shoot the SLN may have been the underdog but had no particular sympathetic qualities.

That great SF Editor the late John Campbell once had an editorial on what he believed to be an American cultural defect. He even gave it a name: hyperinfracaniphilia, excessive and irrational love of the underdog.

The SLN at this point really does not qualify as an underdog other than in the dubious nature of the ships of the Invincible Solarian league Navy.

One might find interesting a set of offshoot stories that may never really connect with the main theme, namely a star nation well outside the area of interest of the OFS that was run by people as competent as Manticore but without their natural trade advantages. One might also find a nation on a planet in which the response to "boo hoo we do not have the money for a good educational computer system" was "we have plenty of chalk and slate, and that was good enough for Einstein and Buckley." Those might be interesting underdogs.

Perhaps I am wandering too far from your question.

Thanks.

Really appreciate the post. Hyperinfracaniphilia? I've never heard of that. Thanks for enlightening me.

Initially, I thought it some type of fear phobia suffered by Sollies hypering in a GA hostile system.

SWM wrote:
My opinion, for what it's worth:

First Havenite War, the underdog is Manticore.

Second Havenite War, the underdog is Haven, even though they started the war. They knew they still hadn't matched Manticore in skill, and were hoping to pull off a quick strike to achieve their ends. It's a case where the underdog didn't win the battle, but ultimately won the peace.

Solarian War, I'm not sure whether there is an underdog. If there is, it would be Manticore. The Solarian League is not an underdog--it is an oversized bully (being urged from the sidelines by mysterious people) who didn't realize the scrawny kid could stand up for himself.

Thanks for post.

I have to admit that Manticore has always remained the underdog in my eyes. I am not sure I could have enjoyed the series as much if it had changed in my mind.

In my eyes, Haven exhibited *NPD from the outset. Especially under Pierre and St. Just. And I simply never thought the leopard's spots would ever change. In fact, I needed them not to, if I were to continue to enjoy the read. So I thought.

I experienced the same feelings in the Trek universe. I didn't want the Federation and Klingons to become allies. In some respects, I'm afraid I am just as awful as some of the Grayson Keys. Ok, maybe not that bad.

It was extensively discussed by my friends regarding the psychological aspect of willing hatred onto a foe. Of not wanting to see humanity in an enemy on certain levels, for fear of empathetic feelings for someone who has killed loved ones. As readers, we take a stance. We take sides. I can certainly feel how difficult it was for Elizabeth to ever trust, or ever want to trust Haven. Even though peace between Manticore and Haven would save many lives, if that leopard ever changed its spots. I can also understand the psychological aspects of not wanting it to ever change. Because then she would feel free to taste her hate upon her palate and swirl it around under her nose heeding its heady aroma. Justification.

****** *

Wiki:
*The serial bully displays behaviour congruent with many of the diagnostic criteria for Narcissistic Personality Disorder. Characterised by a pervasive pattern of grandiosity and self-importance, need for admiration, and lack of empathy, people with narcissistic personality disorder overestimate their abilities and inflate their accomplishments, often appearing boastful and pretentious, whilst correspondingly underestimating and devaluing the achievements and accomplishments of others.

Often the narcissist will fraudulently claim to have qualifications or experience or affiliations or associations which they don't have or aren't entitled to. Belief in superiority, inflating their self-esteem to match that of senior or important people with whom they associate or identify, insisting on having the "top" professionals or being affiliated with the "best" institutions, but criticising the same people who disappoint them are also common features of narcissistic personality disorder.

http://www.bullyonline.org/workbully/npd.htm

Pierre, St. Just and Cordelia Ransom are poster kids for Narcissists. And Haven was guilty by association. Kids are always a good/bad reflection on the parents. Fair or no.

Roses Eloise, sure turned that around. And Theisman and Foraker and ...

Even unto the end, IMHO, Manticore/Grayson remained the underdogs. And let's face it, the underdog almost got its ass kicked in The Battle of Manticore; except that the underdog had a super energy pill in the form of Eight Fleet and its godawful Apollo.

Well, what did Haven expect ...

Apollo + Sphinxian = Salamander.

.

Festival wrote:Who is Underdog?

That would be Shoe Shine Boy.

Oh. The memories.

Thanx!

SWM wrote:My opinion, for what it's worth:

First Havenite War, the underdog is Manticore.

Second Havenite War, the underdog is Haven, even though they started the war. They knew they still hadn't matched Manticore in skill, and were hoping to pull off a quick strike to achieve their ends. It's a case where the underdog didn't win the battle, but ultimately won the peace.

Solarian War, I'm not sure whether there is an underdog. If there is, it would be Manticore. The Solarian League is not an underdog--it is an oversized bully (being urged from the sidelines by mysterious people) who didn't realize the scrawny kid could stand up for himself.

It's interesting that you categorize Haven as the underdog in the Second War when they were arguably the strongest they've ever been and Manticore was near the weakest. I understand your point about the technological differences that still existed at that point but given the sorry state the RMN and the Alliance was in I might almost classify Manticore as the underdog in that fight. That would only last until Manticore starting building up and getting Apollo into deployment however. Then I think the underdog status would shift.

I like that you don't consider the League underdogs. Being in an inferior technological position does not an underdog make. It's not solely about physical power but ideology. The underdog is usually smaller, weaker, and more downtrodden and has always been that way so that they are continually discounted. The League could never be considered any of those things. As you said, they are just a bully (and a paper hexapuma in some respects).

Amaroq wrote:

SWM wrote:My opinion, for what it's worth:

First Havenite War, the underdog is Manticore.

Second Havenite War, the underdog is Haven, even though they started the war. They knew they still hadn't matched Manticore in skill, and were hoping to pull off a quick strike to achieve their ends. It's a case where the underdog didn't win the battle, but ultimately won the peace.

Solarian War, I'm not sure whether there is an underdog. If there is, it would be Manticore. The Solarian League is not an underdog--it is an oversized bully (being urged from the sidelines by mysterious people) who didn't realize the scrawny kid could stand up for himself.

It's interesting that you categorize Haven as the underdog in the Second War when they were arguably the strongest they've ever been and Manticore was near the weakest. I understand your point about the technological differences that still existed at that point but given the sorry state the RMN and the Alliance was in I might almost classify Manticore as the underdog in that fight. That would only last until Manticore starting building up and getting Apollo into deployment however. Then I think the underdog status would shift.

I wondered when someone would discuss that. Thank you for your points.

I disagree that Manticore was near its weakest--Manticore was orders of magnitude weaker right at the beginning of the first war. But I agree that it was the weakest it had been since the end of the first war.

One reason I label Haven the underdog is because they themselves saw their position and technology as inferior. Haven had essentially been beaten at the end of the first war. They had been crushed--it was only luck that prevented that reality from bringing Manticoran fleets over New Paris. They worked hard to eliminate the advantages that Manticore had over them. They used every trick they could think of. And even then they knew that it might not be enough if Manticore decided to fight instead of negotiate after their first strike. They did it anyway because they thought it was the only way to achieve their goal--the restoration of systems that still thought themselves Havenite and a lasting peace.

At the beginning of the war, Haven was badly outmatched. The only reason it became nearly an even match for a while was because Haven (through the kind of planning, shrewdness, desperation, and careful execution you often see in underdogs) managed to take out Manticore's massive deterrent force. For a short while Haven managed to keep things even. But it did not take long before Manticore started forcing them back again.

Another factor is that the Havenite leadership and the Republic as a whole had become likeable. Not that Manticore was not likeable. But an underdog can have a likeable antagonist, but the protagonist must be herself be likeable in order to be labeled an underdog. If Haven had not become likeable, I would not call them the underdog.

The final factor in my thinking is that, in some ways, the High Ridge government had become the bully of the story. They were deliberately using the protracted peace talks for political gain. They smirked and forced Haven into a position it didn't want, because the High Ridge government believed they were the strongest kid on the block and the wimpy Haven couldn't do anything about it. It was like grabbing their lunch bag and holding it just out of reach while taunting them.

Yes, the High Ridge government quickly fell when the war started. And both sides were being manipulated by outside forces. But it remains true that Manticore was in the wrong. The war would not have been necessary in the first place if the Manticore government had not casually oppressed Haven in its negotiations. It wasn't Honor's fault, or Elizabeth's, but IMHO overall Haven held the upper moral position.

Now, others can certainly disagree with me. The perception of underdog is an individual thing. But that's what makes Haven an underdog in the second war for me.

It's interesting that I was more "nervous" for Manticore after the opening stages of the Second War than I was for the first. I recognize that Manticore was actually weaker in terms of ships, armament, and combat power at the start of the first war but it seemed to me that Haven was very tentative once they realized that they couldn't knock Manticore off quickly like they had all of their other conquests. I do agree that Manticore was most definitely the underdog during the first war despite my weird feelings. Your points about the likeability of the underdog are well-taken; I don't imagine many people were rooting for the Legislaturalists or Pierre and St. Just!

I agree on the moral issue during the inter-war period as well. It was a nice flip-flop of positions between Manticore and Haven. I suppose that despite that moral superiority and new-found likeability within the Havenite senior leadership it's still difficult for me to see something as large and as powerful as Haven as being an underdog. I guess I never really got the sense of desperation that you sensed with regard to how they viewed their chances after Thunderbolt failed to force the Manties to negotiate. The only time I really saw them panic and flail a bit was after the reveal of Apollo at Lovat. Before that, I thought they were in very good shape to roll over anything Manticore could throw at them considering the massive number of ships they'd been building. Even after the BoM, they had hundreds of the wall left; enough to send a large fleet with Pritchart to support Manticore against Filareta (although, IIRC, a good chunk of those ships came from Capital Fleet).