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Ebola Virus

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Re: Ebola Virus
Post by cthia   » Tue Oct 14, 2014 2:15 pm

cthia
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Northstar wrote:
Something I am finding troubling is the large difference between the protocols used for people going in and out of level 4 biohazard areas at the CDC and USAMRID at Ft Derrick and what is advised for healthworkers both here and in Africa.

See The Hot Zone for a detailed description of what's done routinely in a true level 4 research facility. They wear full biohazard suits with HEPA filtered air supply. They shower in decontaminating fluids going in and coming out. They are not allowed to wear their street clothes in under their suit. It is naked in and naked out and showers all around both bleach and regular before and after both naked and wearing the suit after. It does not get touched until it has been showered thoroughly in bleach water for several minutes.

This last is JOT done by healthcare workers -nor is any of the rest, they appear to be dressing out of my personal box of handle a dead body stuff. Really? - and IMO this amateur hour stuff may likely be the source of healthworker infections. I do not even see somebody standing there with a spray bottle of bleach soaking them down before disrobing. Appears to be happening in ordinary rooms, not even a surgical type clean up place or even a shower stall. ???!!!???


Sure thing Northstar! I am qualified for level 4 myself. There is an environmental section of my company's civil engineering firm. Hazmat - first response.

We train out of Atlanta. And many people wash out because of one insurmountable aspect of level 4. Claustrophobia. Many people, size/age/gender/race/ doesn't matter, lose all semblance of control the moment that helmet goes on. I've seen panic in varying degrees and stages. Some panic just looking at the helmet. Some panic after helmet clears their head. Some panic when scba (self contained breathing apparatus) commences. Some say the sound of pulling air from a tank incites panic. And breathing from a tank isn't natural. You must use the muscles of your diaphragm.

Sometimes, underneath that external layer you see - which is a layer of tyvek, even down to tyvek boots - is another layer of nomex. (fire protection). Rubber gloves are duct taped to the sleeves of the suit to close openings of opportunity. Ditto with the tyvek boots and pants. Level 4 participants have to be properly fit tested with a respirator, and you must be able to properly assemble/disassemble the entire unit on your own. A malfunctioning flutter valve could be fatal. One should not wear someone else's respirator because it is useless if it isn't a proper fit. Some things, habits, are only learned with experience. Focus is important, and one can never become complacent. Females have to monitor the length of their nails and a proper manicure is important to prevent ripped gloves and/or tyvek. It's all too easy to become lax undergoing the ritual of dressing and undressing and showering for level 4, time and time again. Distraction can kill.

The military, USAMRIID, Hazmat professionals, are trained and experienced. Therefore, health professionals in Africa may not be able to employ true level 4 protocol because of lack of training. Equipment. Proper fitting. And susceptibility to claustrophobia.

I have read that part of the military contingent is to train while in Africa. But everyone isn't trainable. Claustrophobia. Factor in limited qualified professionals and the picture becomes vivid.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Ebola Virus
Post by cthia   » Tue Oct 14, 2014 5:30 pm

cthia
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People just don't realize that it simply cannot be business as usual.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/life/tv/2 ... /17254545/

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Ebola Virus
Post by Northstar   » Tue Oct 14, 2014 8:58 pm

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cthia wrote:People just don't realize that it simply cannot be business as usual.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/life/tv/2 ... /17254545/



Northstar is about to rant. Not about anyone here. About the persons running the Dallas hospital. I watched the CDC news conference today. Gaaah :twisted:

Ok you are a hospital who has to admit a guy who has a high temp, is very sick and came from the Ebola zone in Africa. And, gee, turns out he does have Ebola. Sooo you gotta think....

"We have zero experience dealing with a level 4 hot agent. Therefore it is only reasonable we carry on as usual and let 76 people one way or another come into contact with the hot agent in this guy and/or his blood etc." SEVENTY SIX

"And we will not even spray folks coming out of his room with bleach water. Nope, too much trouble." :roll: :!: :twisted:

Are they insane or am I just being silly? I checked in my copy of The Hot Zone today. Coming out of there at USAMRIID they have to stand under an Envirochem shower for seven minutes. Do we think maybe there is a reason they have to stand under that, suit on, for seven minutes?

Oh, no, we do not even need to squirt bleach water from a spray bottle... let alone something more, like, gasp, professional. Rant, ranty rant, ranty rant rant rant rant. Argh. This young woman may die because this hospital... and apparently who knows how many other places, care so darn little for their people... or are so terminally stupid... they cannot take this a smidgen more seriously.

And 76 people???? Did it not occur to anyone to maybe use a honed down staff, not try to see if they can expose 76 people to one of the most deadly hot agents on earth???

I know. I am being silly. Why on earth should this sort of thing occur to anyone?

grumble, mutter, rant, snark rant. pah!!!

As for Doctor Nancy. She has shown herself to be a stupid self-centered twit; arrogant, idiotic and utterly irresponsible. :evil:

Do not get me started on the CDC's lame and late response to all this. :evil: :evil: :evil:

And just think, these are the same people in charge of world health should a hot respiratory agent, with airborne transmission like, oh measles -RO18- stagger into the emergency room some day.

Gee why do I have trust issues on this subject.... :o
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Re: Ebola Virus
Post by Northstar   » Tue Oct 14, 2014 9:03 pm

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cthia wrote:
Northstar wrote:
Something I am finding troubling is the large difference between the protocols used for people going in and out of level 4 biohazard areas at the CDC and USAMRID at Ft Derrick and what is advised for healthworkers both here and in Africa.

See The Hot Zone for a detailed description of what's done routinely in a true level 4 research facility. They wear full biohazard suits with HEPA filtered air supply. They shower in decontaminating fluids going in and coming out. They are not allowed to wear their street clothes in under their suit. It is naked in and naked out and showers all around both bleach and regular before and after both naked and wearing the suit after. It does not get touched until it has been showered thoroughly in bleach water for several minutes.

This last is JOT done by healthcare workers -nor is any of the rest, they appear to be dressing out of my personal box of handle a dead body stuff. Really? - and IMO this amateur hour stuff may likely be the source of healthworker infections. I do not even see somebody standing there with a spray bottle of bleach soaking them down before disrobing. Appears to be happening in ordinary rooms, not even a surgical type clean up place or even a shower stall. ???!!!???


Sure thing Northstar! I am qualified for level 4 myself. There is an environmental section of my company's civil engineering firm. Hazmat - first response.

We train out of Atlanta. And many people wash out because of one insurmountable aspect of level 4. Claustrophobia. Many people, size/age/gender/race/ doesn't matter, lose all semblance of control the moment that helmet goes on. I've seen panic in varying degrees and stages. Some panic just looking at the helmet. Some panic after helmet clears their head. Some panic when scba (self contained breathing apparatus) commences. Some say the sound of pulling air from a tank incites panic. And breathing from a tank isn't natural. You must use the muscles of your diaphragm.

Sometimes, underneath that external layer you see - which is a layer of tyvek, even down to tyvek boots - is another layer of nomex. (fire protection). Rubber gloves are duct taped to the sleeves of the suit to close openings of opportunity. Ditto with the tyvek boots and pants. Level 4 participants have to be properly fit tested with a respirator, and you must be able to properly assemble/disassemble the entire unit on your own. A malfunctioning flutter valve could be fatal. One should not wear someone else's respirator because it is useless if it isn't a proper fit. Some things, habits, are only learned with experience. Focus is important, and one can never become complacent. Females have to monitor the length of their nails and a proper manicure is important to prevent ripped gloves and/or tyvek. It's all too easy to become lax undergoing the ritual of dressing and undressing and showering for level 4, time and time again. Distraction can kill.

The military, USAMRIID, Hazmat professionals, are trained and experienced. Therefore, health professionals in Africa may not be able to employ true level 4 protocol because of lack of training. Equipment. Proper fitting. And susceptibility to claustrophobia.

I have read that part of the military contingent is to train while in Africa. But everyone isn't trainable. Claustrophobia. Factor in limited qualified professionals and the picture becomes vivid.



Yep, and from what I read a lot of professionals refuse to work with Ebola, because it is so dangerous. Perfectly understandable and so is a claustrophobic reaction to a Rocal or other hazmat suit. Not to mention the cost factor being completely out of range for Africa. I get that fine. If a spray bottle of bleach water is too much, though.... I mean really people. :evil:
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Re: Ebola Virus
Post by Senior Chief   » Tue Oct 14, 2014 10:08 pm

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Can you imagine Ebola breaking out in Central an South America. Then think about our non-existant southern boarder security as thousands swarm north trying to find jobs, running from Ebola hopeing that the USA has better medical facilities than their 3rd World country they just left. Just think how unprepared the USA is just taking care of one patient in Dallas when untold thousands swarm north bringing Ebola with them as well as other diseases. Just a thought.
Last edited by Senior Chief on Wed Oct 15, 2014 8:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ebola Virus
Post by DDHv   » Wed Oct 15, 2014 6:38 am

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Senior Chief wrote:Can you imagine Ebola breaking out in Central an South America. Then think about our non-existant southern boarder security as thousands swarm north trying to find jobs, running from Ebola hopeing that the USA has better medical than their 3rd World country they just left. Just think how unprepared the USA is just taking care of one patient in Dallas when untold thousands swarm north bring Ebola with them as well as other diseases. Just a thought.


Many seem to accept the fantasy idea that reality can be modified by wanting it, without all that work. At least some users of hallucinating drugs assume the only thing they can know for sure is what is in their own heads. But none of this is a survival method. REALITY CAN BITE!

Worth reading:

http://www.breakpoint.org/bpcommentarie ... y/13/26237
Douglas Hvistendahl
Retired technical nerd

Dumb mistakes are very irritating.
Smart mistakes go on forever
Unless you test your assumptions!
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Re: Ebola Virus
Post by biochem   » Wed Oct 15, 2014 8:41 am

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Senior Chief wrote:Can you imagine Ebola breaking out in Central an South America. Then think about our non-existant southern boarder security as thousands swarm north trying to find jobs, running from Ebola hopeing that the USA has better medical than their 3rd World country they just left. Just think how unprepared the USA is just taking care of one patient in Dallas when untold thousands swarm north bring Ebola with them as well as other diseases. Just a thought.


Some places in Africa have successfully minimized the epidemic. The key seems to be a rapid efficient response. Door to Door education if necessary. Unfortunately those places are the exception not the rule. The rule seems to be misdiagnosis/slow diagnosis, followed by incorrect and/or sloppy adherence to biohazard procedures (The problem isn't just that they lack the correct protective equipment, it was that they weren't bothering to use what equipment was available. Even just using bleach helps! That's in part where the education comes in, educating people on the importance of sterility procedures in preventing the spread of the disease.), followed by a complete mismanagement of the situation that allowed Ebola to get completely out of control etc. Given the wonderful governments that we have in parts of central/south America, if Ebola takes hold there it would not surprise me at all, if they also allow it to grow to epidemic proportions.
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Re: Ebola Virus
Post by biochem   » Wed Oct 15, 2014 8:50 am

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There is a great deal of talk about how meticulous and careful the nurse in Dallas was. But that still does not mean human error did not occur. Everyone makes mistakes. Everyone! A meticulous careful person simply makes mistakes rarely, but they do still make them.
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Re: Ebola Virus
Post by cthia   » Wed Oct 15, 2014 10:20 am

cthia
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I have added this to my original posting ...

Edit:
There has been two significant, informative forks of this thread. I'd like to keep the information together, but threads inevitably become separated. Therefore ...

Important forks of this thread ...

Sustainability vs Survivalist
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=6153

Practical Tips, Etc. & Format
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=6301

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Ebola Virus
Post by Northstar   » Wed Oct 15, 2014 11:42 am

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Location: Wisconsin, USA

biochem wrote:There is a great deal of talk about how meticulous and careful the nurse in Dallas was. But that still does not mean human error did not occur. Everyone makes mistakes. Everyone! A meticulous careful person simply makes mistakes rarely, but they do still make them.


If she does not have the proper equipment available she cannot, literally cannot protect herself.

Today a second healthworker in that hospital is down with Ebola and the CDC is now saying they expect there will be more.

Also, nurses from there have been talking to a nurses' union. The assertions are... appalling. Lab samples sent through the regular hospital tube system... risking contaminating it with Ebola.. Wastes left to pile up. Nurses without proper protective gear... even now. Still. And those nurse treating Mr Duncan also still on duty caring for other patients while caring for Mr Duncan. Like any other nurses in any hospital dealing with any other condition. ARE THEY INSANE????

The nurses union person said she cried as she listened to what she was being told.

A supervisor told nurses even use of an N95 mask was optional. GAHHHHHH.

We are talking care of a patient emitting massive amounts of vomit and diarrhea -among other body fluids- all of which is incandescent with virus.

The nurses had exposed skin on their faces and necks. The miracle will be if all the nurses don't break with Ebola. That will literally be a miracle... or pure dumb luck, take your choice.

These are brave people, Do not get me wrong on that. But this Hospital's administration, policies and equipment made available are... horrible.

Mr Duncan was left in company of other patients for HOURS before a nurse supervisor showed up and insisted he be isolated, over resistance to her odd notion from Hospital admin people. MORE INSANITY.

There is more being alleged.

Look, I am not worried about Ebola spreading all over the USA, but the incompetence and idiotic stuff being done -and not done- down there is a nightmare.

Doctors without Borders has treated over 2000 Ebola patients under primitive conditions in Africa. They have had two cross infections of staff. 2. This Dallas hospital, with all they have available to them treated 1 Ebola patient and now have 2 cross infections. What is wrong with this picture? :evil:

As to Ebola loose in Central and South America... now there is a scary thought. Slums of Rio anyone?
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