Manticoran Heirs

So I have just finished the first anthology, which has all the backround in the back and a question has occured to me:
The heir most marry a commoner but the other children of the royalty may marry as they wish. What would happen if the first born marrys a commoner and the second marries a noble and then the first born dies with out an heir of their own?
Logic suggests that it won't be a big deal if the second born is already married, but they would miss the connection to the commeners in that case.
To make it more interesting the second born is actually only engaged to be married when the first born dies with no heir.
Any on have any thoughts about this?
I know this is not worth much but it a a curiosity that occured to me.

Duckk wrote:http://forums.davidweber.net/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4980&p=121074

Caitrin could have married Gold Peak before Roger married. She delayed her wedding so that Angelique could have the support of her best friend at her own wedding. The heir to the throne is required to marry a commoner; there have been references in the books to the fact that individuals who were not the heir at the time of their marriage and married someone from the nobility is not required to divorce his/her current spouse and marry again. The Constitution accepts that there will/may be occasions upon which the heir dies without producing an heir of his/her own with a commoner spouse but does not require someone who isn't heir to defer his/her marriage until the heir marries "just in case."

See bold.
Thanks, can you be more specific? I don't remember seeing it. I havent read he acedant book yet.

WOuld it count if the person was only a temporarily commoner? say the heir of the anderman empire was temporily disinhereted so he could marry the manticore heir, then after he is married his title is restored. It would allow for a possible unification of those two long term allies/competition.

Commodore Oakius wrote:

Duckk wrote:http://forums.davidweber.net/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4980&p=121074

Caitrin could have married Gold Peak before Roger married. She delayed her wedding so that Angelique could have the support of her best friend at her own wedding. The heir to the throne is required to marry a commoner; there have been references in the books to the fact that individuals who were not the heir at the time of their marriage and married someone from the nobility is not required to divorce his/her current spouse and marry again. The Constitution accepts that there will/may be occasions upon which the heir dies without producing an heir of his/her own with a commoner spouse but does not require someone who isn't heir to defer his/her marriage until the heir marries "just in case."

See bold.
Thanks, can you be more specific? I don't remember seeing it. I havent read he acedant book yet.

Look at the genealogy page of ACtA. Queen Elizabeth II was married to Baron New Madrid and succeeded her brother King Edward I.

SYED wrote:WOuld it count if the person was only a temporarily commoner? say the heir of the anderman empire was temporily disinhereted so he could marry the manticore heir, then after he is married his title is restored. It would allow for a possible unification of those two long term allies/competition.

If you are not a Manti noble it doesn't matter.

Commodore Oakius wrote:

Duckk wrote:http://forums.davidweber.net/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4980&p=121074

Caitrin could have married Gold Peak before Roger married. She delayed her wedding so that Angelique could have the support of her best friend at her own wedding. The heir to the throne is required to marry a commoner; there have been references in the books to the fact that individuals who were not the heir at the time of their marriage and married someone from the nobility is not required to divorce his/her current spouse and marry again. The Constitution accepts that there will/may be occasions upon which the heir dies without producing an heir of his/her own with a commoner spouse but does not require someone who isn't heir to defer his/her marriage until the heir marries "just in case."

See bold.
Thanks, can you be more specific? I don't remember seeing it. I havent read he acedant book yet.

I couldn't remember that exact info from the book either, but saber964 posted one example.

On the other hand, since Duckk was quoting a post from David Weber himself (who posts as runsforcelery here) I'd taken it as correct even though I couldn't remember it from the books


Now RFC's post doesn't address the "engaged to be married" situation, but I suspect if it was a serious engagement with wedding plans in progress that it would be treated like a marriage - the new heir wouldn't have to break off the engagement. (Now if the engagement got called of for other reasons, then I'd say you're back to "have to marry a commoner" you don't get to keep that exemption).

Another variation that may not have come up yet in the history of Manticore is if the heir's spouse died, or divorced them. Would a remarriage follow the same rule (and would it matter if the first marriage was to a commoner, or if it was a 'grandfathered in' noble marriage)?

SYED wrote:WOuld it count if the person was only a temporarily commoner? say the heir of the anderman empire was temporily disinhereted so he could marry the manticore heir, then after he is married his title is restored. It would allow for a possible unification of those two long term allies/competition.

I think that wouldn't fly for several reasons. First, it has to be a Manticore commoner/citizen. Second it has to be someone born a noble. So being disinherited/disavowing the noble title/rank wouldn't be accepted either, especially if you got the rank back after the marriage. It would be seen as an attempt to manipulate the rules of succession for purely political gain. Third, nobles or commoners from outside the Star Empire don't have a say in what/where the lines of succession go, so if a descendant of a marriage between the Andermani and Manticore did come along to make a claim for Manticore's thrown, it would be taken very badly and would not result in any merging of the two realms. I think Manticore's Constitution would have several paragraphs on disallowing that, unless the government voted to allow it. So somehow getting an Andermani descendant on the Manticore throne wouldn;t be enough. Everyone else in the SEM needs to put their stamp of approval on it too. And lastly, anyone from the AE, especially a disinherited noble would automatically be suspected of playing politics in seeking the Crown Prince/ess's hand in marriage.

Zakharra wrote:First, it has to be a Manticore commoner/citizen.

I'm not sure that is true. Elizabeth's brother -- and heir at the time -- married Judith, the escaped Masadan slave/wife and former Grayson. That qualified as marrying a commoner although Judith's daughter Ruth is not in the line of Succession.

I'm pretty sure that there is enough slack in the provision that any questionable marriage would be the source of a lot of political venom and a potential Constitutional crisis.

Weird Harold wrote:

Zakharra wrote:First, it has to be a Manticore commoner/citizen.

I'm not sure that is true. Elizabeth's brother -- and heir at the time -- married Judith, the escaped Masadan slave/wife and former Grayson. That qualified as marrying a commoner although Judith's daughter Ruth is not in the line of Succession.

I'm pretty sure that there is enough slack in the provision that any questionable marriage would be the source of a lot of political venom and a potential Constitutional crisis.

I should have clarified; I don't think a disinherited nobleperson(male or female) from the Andermani imperial family would be allowed to marry one of the Manticorain royal family. mostly because it would be seen as a political ploy. Especially in the scenario that I replied to. If the disinherited person's title/rank was restored after the wedding, it would be seen as nothing but a political ploy by the Andermani Imperial family and not taken well at all. I think any such 'commoner' from the Andermani Imperial family would have to promise to remain a commoner and accept only Manticore titles and rankings and be disassociated from the Andermani Imperial family (ie their children are not eligible for rank in the AE or the Imperial throne)