HFQ Official Snippet #7

For all those who think Thirsk would surrender, I would point out that he does not exist in isolation. He also has the families of all of his officers and senior enlisted to think of. As rabid as Clyntyn is, it is entirely possible he would order the deaths of the families of every one of those officers at the very least. At this time, the only way out that I can see for any of them is the destruction of the Inquisition, whether or not the CoGA also falls.

Thirsk is very much aware of just how unbalanced the GI is, at least in the GI's outward actions. IMPO, it is the excesses of the GI that are causing Thirsk's religious crisis. If Clyntyn had not been so visibly contemptuous of the people he was killing, I think Thirsk would be having less of a problem with his actions. Whether we (the readers) want to admit it or not, Clyntyn's actions fall within the teachings of the Church. It is only through the excesses of the last few years that the inconsistencies in the Writ are becoming something to be questioned. Thirsk has been a believer for around sixty years. It is only in the last seven that he has had any doubts and only in the last couple that his faith in the Church has really taken a hit. To him, it has become a question of which is the true face of the Church: the one he grew up believing in or what it has now shown itself to be.

As a side note, we persist in judging Thirsk by our own religious upbringings. However, the CoGA is not the same as any religion of Earth today. There are major differences that affect what the people of Safehold view as moral. It is only through their religion that we can determine whether or not they are behaving morally or not. Our beliefs do not apply to anyone on Safehold, as much as we could wish it were so. That being said, one of the purposes of this story is to point us (the readers) in the direction of examining our own beliefs and clarifying them in our own minds.

As a side note, we persist in judging Thirsk by our own religious upbringings. However, the CoGA is not the same as any religion of Earth today. There are major differences that affect what the people of Safehold view as moral.

The problem is deeper. There is no other religion on Safehold at all, and no other philosophy at all. There are no Safeholdian equvalent of ancient Greece, or Rome, there are no equivalent of India, or China, or Percia or Arabic nations, that could present the differnt point of view. And it would be enormously difficult to break this system.

Hmm... count me in with the camp that thinks that if Thirsk defects from the CoGA side, he's going to take (or go along with if there's any difference) the entire Kingdom of Dohlar with him.

It could be something just as simple as the higher ups (Duke of Fern most likely, but it's possible he convinces his King too) that Dohlar can't prosecute a continuing war any more and the best thing for the Kingdom is to just throw in the towel and drop out of the war. The Inquisition of course is going to object, but that's where Thirsk comes in...

evilauthor wrote:Hmm... count me in with the camp that thinks that if Thirsk defects from the CoGA side, he's going to take (or go along with if there's any difference) the entire Kingdom of Dohlar with him.

It could be something just as simple as the higher ups (Duke of Fern most likely, but it's possible he convinces his King too) that Dohlar can't prosecute a continuing war any more and the best thing for the Kingdom is to just throw in the towel and drop out of the war. The Inquisition of course is going to object, but that's where Thirsk comes in...

It's too radical... but it's possible (i may even say - guaranteed), that if king Rahnyld IV realizes that he was on the losing side, he would be pretty happy to make any peace with Charis, that would assure that the crown would remain on his head.

And as David Weber has said their religion has a major contradiction.

While there are parts of the Writ that show views that we would accept as valid, the Book of Schueler gives the Inquistition authority to do terrible things, even in terms of what other parts of the Writ state.

Thirsk is in the position of having part of his faith saying "this is wrong" but another part of his faith saying "this is not wrong".

Not only is his family in danger, he faces the question of how God would view his actions or inactions.

Put another way, if he's killed because he opposed the actions of the Inquistition, how would God view his actions? Would he be condemned to Hell for his actions or rewarded for his actions?

Dilandu wrote:

As a side note, we persist in judging Thirsk by our own religious upbringings. However, the CoGA is not the same as any religion of Earth today. There are major differences that affect what the people of Safehold view as moral.

The problem is deeper. There is no other religion on Safehold at all, and no other philosophy at all. There are no Safeholdian equvalent of ancient Greece, or Rome, there are no equivalent of India, or China, or Percia or Arabic nations, that could present the differnt point of view. And it would be enormously difficult to break this system.

DrakBibliophile wrote:And as David Weber has said their religion has a major contradiction.

Yes, there is, but it is internal problem. It won't really expands the avaliable historical and philosophical expirience. The problem is, that in the onbly single religious doctrine (even flawed and contradictional) it would be VERY hard to make some philosophical progress.

That is the problem of any militant religion dealing with heresy. Look at 30 years war in Germany or the crusade against Cathars. Whether other religions exist or not is not the problem, as fighting heresy the harshest way possible is mostly required by the fact that revealed truth and word of god was broken. The book of Schueler is exceptional in that he impose a long list of tortures to save the souls but our version of inquisition burned a lot of people at stake simply because they were suspected to be witches or hidden jews (marranos). The mindset of militant religions is simply weird and contradictory.

Remember how the priests in Corisande were sure that Charis inquisition would react badly if they caused troubles, and that they could exploit that ? It never occured to them that Charis had no need of inquisition.

But Thirsk has no reference point due to the absence of any other religion on Safehold, and he is powerless in face of the church. Therefore expecting him to somehow fighting lawful authority of inquisition is simply absurd. It is quite a wedge though and will likely help him to endorse the heretic point of view, but until he desert his own nation, he can only obey the church.

And the modern concept of unlawful orders dont work either, because by definition church actions are lawful.

DrakBibliophile wrote:And as David Weber has said their religion has a major contradiction.

While there are parts of the Writ that show views that we would accept as valid, the Book of Schueler gives the Inquistition authority to do terrible things, even in terms of what other parts of the Writ state.

Thirsk is in the position of having part of his faith saying "this is wrong" but another part of his faith saying "this is not wrong".

Not only is his family in danger, he faces the question of how God would view his actions or inactions.

Put another way, if he's killed because he opposed the actions of the Inquistition, how would God view his actions? Would he be condemned to Hell for his actions or rewarded for his actions?

alj_sf wrote:That is the problem of any militant religion dealing with heresy. Look at 30 years war in Germany or the crusade against Cathars. Whether other religions exist or not is not the problem, as fighting heresy the harshest way possible is mostly required by the fact that revealed truth and word of god was broken. The book of Schueler is exceptional in that he impose a long list of tortures to save the souls but our version of inquisition burned a lot of people at stake simply because they were suspected to be witches or hidden jews (marranos). The mindset of militant religions is simply weird and contradictory.

The model isn't accurate. The 1600th germany at least knew about different models

KNick wrote:For all those who think Thirsk would surrender, I would point out that he does not exist in isolation. He also has the families of all of his officers and senior enlisted to think of. As rabid as Clyntyn is, it is entirely possible he would order the deaths of the families of every one of those officers at the very least. At this time, the only way out that I can see for any of them is the destruction of the Inquisition, whether or not the CoGA also falls.

Thirsk is very much aware of just how unbalanced the GI is, at least in the GI's outward actions. IMPO, it is the excesses of the GI that are causing Thirsk's religious crisis. If Clyntyn had not been so visibly contemptuous of the people he was killing, I think Thirsk would be having less of a problem with his actions. Whether we (the readers) want to admit it or not, Clyntyn's actions fall within the teachings of the Church. It is only through the excesses of the last few years that the inconsistencies in the Writ are becoming something to be questioned. Thirsk has been a believer for around sixty years. It is only in the last seven that he has had any doubts and only in the last couple that his faith in the Church has really taken a hit. To him, it has become a question of which is the true face of the Church: the one he grew up believing in or what it has now shown itself to be.

As a side note, we persist in judging Thirsk by our own religious upbringings. However, the CoGA is not the same as any religion of Earth today. There are major differences that affect what the people of Safehold view as moral. It is only through their religion that we can determine whether or not they are behaving morally or not. Our beliefs do not apply to anyone on Safehold, as much as we could wish it were so. That being said, one of the purposes of this story is to point us (the readers) in the direction of examining our own beliefs and clarifying them in our own minds.

The GI will be so incensed at the impending surrender of Dohlars Navy and of the surrender of the balance of the Dohlarian Army he will probably demand a portion of the Harchong Army go clear out and smite Dohlar.

It would be ironic to have Hanth and Eastshare defending Dohlar against the force of the Inquisition!

dwileye13 wrote:
The GI will be so incensed at the impending surrender of Dohlars Navy and of the surrender of the balance of the Dohlarian Army he will probably demand a portion of the Harchong Army go clear out and smite Dohlar.

It would be ironic to have Hanth and Eastshare defending Dohlar against the force of the Inquisition!

Well, the Dolharans looks like pretty able to defens themselves. It may be the Italian scenario - the enemy turned in the reluctant ally.