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The Navy of God against Charis naval superiority

This fascinating series is a combination of historical seafaring, swashbuckling adventure, and high technological science-fiction. Join us in a discussion!
Re: The Navy of God against Charis naval superiority
Post by PeterZ   » Sat Oct 04, 2014 11:21 pm

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n7axw wrote:I have never suggested that the race to the moon was accomplished in the most efficient possible way. What I have said is that at least at that time and place, it was accomplished in the only way possible, at least in terms of marshalling public support and resourses. Further, the cost of the project has paid for itself many times over in terms of the spinoffs that made their way into the private sector economies.

The private sector does well on research for which it can see an immediate use. The government, on the other hand, has been funding pure scientific research, often through the universities forever. I am merely saying here that this is not an either/or. Both are needed and their roles should be regarded complimentary rather than competitive.

Don


I don't really disagree, Don. I simply take issue that private companies don't look long term. Rubbish! Companies invest in their future all the time. Intel R&D's to a fare-tge-well. The same for GE. Private companies simply can't invest everything they have into R&D. They need working capital to generate enough profits to cope with future uncertainty first. After securing their ability to engage in current revenue generating activities into the future, they invest in future revenue streams. These future streams may include R&D or simply buying other's R&D. Only then are earnings paid out.

Many people make it seem that companies only care about paying out investors. Investors are rarely the top priority when companies make investment decisions.
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Re: The Navy of God against Charis naval superiority
Post by McGuiness   » Sat Oct 04, 2014 11:57 pm

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PeterZ wrote:
n7axw wrote:The private sector does well on research for which it can see an immediate use. The government, on the other hand, has been funding pure scientific research, often through the universities forever. I am merely saying here that this is not an either/or. Both are needed and their roles should be regarded complimentary rather than competitive.
Don

I don't really disagree, Don. I simply take issue that private companies don't look long term. Rubbish! Companies invest in their future all the time. Intel R&D's to a fare-tge-well. The same for GE. Private companies simply can't invest everything they have into R&D. They need working capital to generate enough profits to cope with future uncertainty first. After securing their ability to engage in current revenue generating activities into the future, they invest in future revenue streams. These future streams may include R&D or simply buying other's R&D. Only then are earnings paid out.

Many people make it seem that companies only care about paying out investors. Investors are rarely the top priority when companies make investment decisions.
Check any software company (not behemoths like Microsoft or IBM, which have entrenched and opposing divisions within the companies themselves, and see what percentage of their spending is spend on R&D. 20%+ is pretty much the minimum, especially for smaller companies, most which spend considerably more than that. It's only when management decides to pad their wallets by attaching their personal bonuses to quarterly profits that we see short term thinking kick in. Having to pay out dividends can cause the same problem, as that forces the company to maximize current income vs. maximizing long range income to remain attractive to investors.

That doesn't really apply in Charis at the moment, since the number of stocks that would be listed on any exchange would be fairly short - and buying Howsmyn Enterprises and his mentor's textile company's stock would be all you'd need for a well-rounded (and extremely lucrative) portfolio.

There's really no substitute for innovation and long-term thinking than a well-funded private company with no shareholders to whom it must answer, and thus is free to research and innovate as it sees fit.

Of course the idiots in the U.S. Patent office who do things like issuing Microsoft a patent on adding up a column of numbers in a spreadsheet years after Visicalc invented the spreadsheet and Lotus made it the reason the PC became a necessary business expense(a spreadsheet isn't a spreadsheet if it can't add up a column of numbers after all) need to be treated like inquisitors who fall into Charisian hands... :twisted:

"Oh bother", said Pooh as he glanced through the airlock window at the helmet he'd forgotten to wear.
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Re: The Navy of God against Charis naval superiority
Post by DennisLee   » Sun Oct 05, 2014 12:51 am

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n7axw wrote:... But in the main, I stand by my post. The primary applications seem to have been commercial, where you are talking about steam engines used in mines or powering textile mills, etc. The first railroad was used for hauling coal from the mines to factories in Liverpool. <strong>It was a matter of individual inventers coming up with ideas, patenting them and selling them</strong> and finding their way into usage by business. This is true whether you are talking about the direct use of steam, ... If I'm judging this right, its going to be an enormously creative ...

Don


Uh... actually, no. It was the expiration of the Boulton and Watt monopoly patents that allowed the innovations in steam power that led to steam locomotives, steam powered nautical craft, etc http://www.fee.org/the_freeman/detail/do-patents-encourage-or-hinder-innovation-the-case-of-the-steam-engine.

In my opinion, once the frantic pace of the war effort is over, the introduction of the patent system will be a driving force for stagnation, not innovation.
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Re: The Navy of God against Charis naval superiority
Post by Castenea   » Sun Oct 05, 2014 6:29 am

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DennisLee wrote:
n7axw wrote:... But in the main, I stand by my post. The primary applications seem to have been commercial, where you are talking about steam engines used in mines or powering textile mills, etc. The first railroad was used for hauling coal from the mines to factories in Liverpool. <strong>It was a matter of individual inventers coming up with ideas, patenting them and selling them</strong> and finding their way into usage by business. This is true whether you are talking about the direct use of steam, ... If I'm judging this right, its going to be an enormously creative ...

Don


Uh... actually, no. It was the expiration of the Boulton and Watt monopoly patents that allowed the innovations in steam power that led to steam locomotives, steam powered nautical craft, etc http://www.fee.org/the_freeman/detail/do-patents-encourage-or-hinder-innovation-the-case-of-the-steam-engine.

In my opinion, once the frantic pace of the war effort is over, the introduction of the patent system will be a driving force for stagnation, not innovation.

Patents can be both a spur to innovation and a hindrance. A good portion of incremental advancement comes from trying to get around your rivals patent, and the guaranteed monopoly gives a promised return on investment. Overly broad and excessively long patents stifle innovation as they allow an inventor to rest on their laurels.
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Re: The Navy of God against Charis naval superiority
Post by n7axw   » Sun Oct 05, 2014 6:26 pm

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DennisLee wrote:
n7axw wrote:... But in the main, I stand by my post. The primary applications seem to have been commercial, where you are talking about steam engines used in mines or powering textile mills, etc. The first railroad was used for hauling coal from the mines to factories in Liverpool. <strong>It was a matter of individual inventers coming up with ideas, patenting them and selling them</strong> and finding their way into usage by business. This is true whether you are talking about the direct use of steam, ... If I'm judging this right, its going to be an enormously creative ...

Don


Uh... actually, no. It was the expiration of the Boulton and Watt monopoly patents that allowed the innovations in steam power that led to steam locomotives, steam powered nautical craft, etc http://www.fee.org/the_freeman/detail/do-patents-encourage-or-hinder-innovation-the-case-of-the-steam-engine.

In my opinion, once the frantic pace of the war effort is over, the introduction of the patent system will be a driving force for stagnation, not innovation.


I really wasn't trying to say that the "guvment" can't screw up. I was merely pointing out that this was a period of enormous unleashed creativity that happened mostly in the private sector, driven by profit oriented concerns. Nothing in your post contradicts that.

As for what happens in Safehold, my own guess is that at least among the leading nations, particularly Siddarmark and the EOC, but possibly also Dohlar, there is going to be a lot of creativity unleashed. In fact if the power of the inquisition is broken, I wouldn't be surprised to see the Temple Lands take off. Even after the hit they are going to take as the war winds down, there is a lot of money floating around there. Their traditional aristocracy, the vicars and archbishops, are going to be either gone or in turmoil. It's possible that they might have an altogether new arrangement.

Don
When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: The Navy of God against Charis naval superiority
Post by McGuiness   » Mon Oct 06, 2014 3:18 am

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n7axw wrote:As for what happens in Safehold, my own guess is that at least among the leading nations, particularly Siddarmark and the EOC, but possibly also Dohlar, there is going to be a lot of creativity unleashed. In fact if the power of the inquisition is broken, I wouldn't be surprised to see the Temple Lands take off. Even after the hit they are going to take as the war winds down, there is a lot of money floating around there. Their traditional aristocracy, the vicars and archbishops, are going to be either gone or in turmoil. It's possible that they might have an altogether new arrangement.Don


If we were to rank the nations of Safehold according to their current level of innovation and manufacturing, it would be something like this:

#1 Empire of Charis (by an order of magnitude!)
#2 Temple Lands (Magwair's wizard better at creating practical designs from Charisian tech, gets stolen tech first, awash in money, has a good manufacturing base that's growing rapidly.
#3 Dohlar (Thirsk's wizard is the best outside of Charis and it has a dependable manufacturing base.)
#4 Siddarmark - will soon be #2 with Charisian tech transfers and has a massively expanding manufacturing base.
#5 Desnair (Mediocre manufacturing base, mediocre quality of manufacture, no innovation. A distant 5th...)
#6 South Harchong. Utterly corrupt but you can fire its cannon without having it explode in your face - maybe.
#7 North Harchong. Sixth only because Sodar is nothing but sheepherders and the Trellheim pirates don't manufacture anything. Products best used as scrap metal for Dohlar.

The various border states probably fall somewhere between North Harchong and Desnair. They aren't producing a lot of weapons, but they are providing a lot of warm bodies for Magwair to turn into soldiers.

As things currently stand in the war, Dohlar is the only CoGA allied nation that's clearly going to take it on the chin in its own territory. How that shakes out will largely determine the outcome of the war, since Desnair is largely out of it already, and South Harchong won't have a ship afloat once the ICN gets busy in the Gulf of Dohlar. North Harchong will be forced to ship all its men and supplies by land, and it has no canal system. It's contributed most of what it can already, now that the ICN is about to run wild in the Gulf of Dohlar! (THANK YOU RFC!)

He's laughing because I've been screaming for the ICN to take out Gorath and Thirsk since before MTaT.

By the end of HFQ, Dohlar may have fallen and the AoG may be driven completely out of Siddarmark. The wildcard is the 1.3 million man army of Harchongese, even though a large part of it remains cannon fodder. 640,000 rifles is nothing to sneeze at, especially when over 90,000 of them are breechloaders.

The M96 with bullets that use smokeless powder can't arrive soon enough! But once it does... :twisted:

"Oh bother", said Pooh as he glanced through the airlock window at the helmet he'd forgotten to wear.
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Re: The Navy of God against Charis naval superiority
Post by n7axw   » Mon Oct 06, 2014 7:20 pm

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McGuiness wrote:
n7axw wrote:As for what happens in Safehold, my own guess is that at least among the leading nations, particularly Siddarmark and the EOC, but possibly also Dohlar, there is going to be a lot of creativity unleashed. In fact if the power of the inquisition is broken, I wouldn't be surprised to see the Temple Lands take off. Even after the hit they are going to take as the war winds down, there is a lot of money floating around there. Their traditional aristocracy, the vicars and archbishops, are going to be either gone or in turmoil. It's possible that they might have an altogether new arrangement.Don


If we were to rank the nations of Safehold according to their current level of innovation and manufacturing, it would be something like this:

#1 Empire of Charis (by an order of magnitude!)
#2 Temple Lands (Magwair's wizard better at creating practical designs from Charisian tech, gets stolen tech first, awash in money, has a good manufacturing base that's growing rapidly.
#3 Dohlar (Thirsk's wizard is the best outside of Charis and it has a dependable manufacturing base.)
#4 Siddarmark - will soon be #2 with Charisian tech transfers and has a massively expanding manufacturing base.
#5 Desnair (Mediocre manufacturing base, mediocre quality of manufacture, no innovation. A distant 5th...)
#6 South Harchong. Utterly corrupt but you can fire its cannon without having it explode in your face - maybe.
#7 North Harchong. Sixth only because Sodar is nothing but sheepherders and the Trellheim pirates don't manufacture anything. Products best used as scrap metal for Dohlar.

The various border states probably fall somewhere between North Harchong and Desnair. They aren't producing a lot of weapons, but they are providing a lot of warm bodies for Magwair to turn into soldiers.

As things currently stand in the war, Dohlar is the only CoGA allied nation that's clearly going to take it on the chin in its own territory. How that shakes out will largely determine the outcome of the war, since Desnair is largely out of it already, and South Harchong won't have a ship afloat once the ICN gets busy in the Gulf of Dohlar. North Harchong will be forced to ship all its men and supplies by land, and it has no canal system. It's contributed most of what it can already, now that the ICN is about to run wild in the Gulf of Dohlar! (THANK YOU RFC!)

He's laughing because I've been screaming for the ICN to take out Gorath and Thirsk since before MTaT.

By the end of HFQ, Dohlar may have fallen and the AoG may be driven completely out of Siddarmark. The wildcard is the 1.3 million man army of Harchongese, even though a large part of it remains cannon fodder. 640,000 rifles is nothing to sneeze at, especially when over 90,000 of them are breechloaders.

The M96 with bullets that use smokeless powder can't arrive soon enough! But once it does... :twisted:


On basis of text ev, I would probably flip your two and three, but otherwise I agree.

I expect movement on the part of the Harchongians to be slow, even if they get the chance to move at all. I think they will be attacked in place, probably flanking attacks by BVG from the north and DE from the south.

As for weapons, you are right about the rifles and breechloaders deserving respect. But so far in the direct faceoff battles it has been artillery that has been decisive with the exception of that fight in the woods by Ft. Tairys.

Repeating rifles in the spring for the EOC forces. We will see how that goes.

Interesting times indeed.

Don
When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: The Navy of God against Charis naval superiority
Post by Zakharra   » Mon Oct 06, 2014 8:25 pm

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DennisLee wrote:
n7axw wrote:... But in the main, I stand by my post. The primary applications seem to have been commercial, where you are talking about steam engines used in mines or powering textile mills, etc. The first railroad was used for hauling coal from the mines to factories in Liverpool. <strong>It was a matter of individual inventers coming up with ideas, patenting them and selling them</strong> and finding their way into usage by business. This is true whether you are talking about the direct use of steam, ... If I'm judging this right, its going to be an enormously creative ...

Don


Uh... actually, no. It was the expiration of the Boulton and Watt monopoly patents that allowed the innovations in steam power that led to steam locomotives, steam powered nautical craft, etc http://www.fee.org/the_freeman/detail/do-patents-encourage-or-hinder-innovation-the-case-of-the-steam-engine.

In my opinion, once the frantic pace of the war effort is over, the introduction of the patent system will be a driving force for stagnation, not innovation.



In Charis and Siddermark, the patent office will be designed to spur innovation and creativity, not stifle it. Merlin and the inner circle need Safehold to be able to grow technologically and need incentive to innovate, so I cannot see the patent offices in the two mentioned countries ever stifling innovation for a long time.
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Re: The Navy of God against Charis naval superiority
Post by lyonheart   » Tue Oct 07, 2014 5:33 am

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Hi McGuiness,

Regarding the Border states, the textev clearly states their armies weren't used because they were too small and obsolete; despite later having made 204,000 rifles for them, a ratio of 1/500 compared to Desnar's AoJ having only 17,708 after years of preparation for a ratio of almost 1 out of 8360, or almost 12 times as many despite having just over 2/3 the population.

I've pointed out those BS rifles will have to be kept and used together, ie tagged to ensure they are carefully identified as to who made them or they will quickly become useless, given the very varied nature of their manufacture all over the BS.

The initial textev suggested none of the Border States' population was recruited for the Army of God, those 500,000 were recruited entirely from within the KotTL, though some, albeit relatively few, have since joined the AoG.

I'd argue Siddarmark is far more likely to innovate over a far wider spectrum than either the Knights of the Temple Lands or Dohlar, both of whom are watched and rather restricted, not knowing what will be permitted and what not, depending on Clyntahn's whim.

Having just one or two people in nations with 89 and 97 million people respectively doesn't impress me [3 out of 186 million, seriously?], when there are lots more trying to figure out how to save the republic and far more motivated.

I suspect we'll see some in HFQ, if not the next book; does anyone care to guess what they'll invent?

Aside from a guillotine, to speed up inquisitor and other executions? ;)

Compared to the open support by the EoC and the RoS across their societies, rather than in a very narrow field, everyone else are very distant also-rans, with the possible exception of South Harchong, which seems to be shifting toward a more mercantile societal preference.

Given what Rock Point said in March 897 at the end of LaMA, Sharpfield isn't going to run wild yet.

Interdict CoGA shipping, particularly between North and South Harchong, but not much past the Gulf Narrows.

Dohlar may be toast long before the end of HFQ, but how the alliance treats Dohlar may be critical as to how others, like the BS respond when the alliance approaches and advances beyond their borders.

The MHoGatA may number 1.6 million or more, but it will have to be broken up in the face of the changes the alliance is making to the Go4's TO&E. :D

We've already been put on notice that Safehold armies expect to spend a day getting ready for battle from the approach march.

Any sub-army etc that dallies that long in front of the ICA is toast, just from being hammered by its artillery, while the rest of the ICA marches around and ambushes those still stuck on the road or waiting to find out where they're supposed to go etc, when its already too late.

The alliance will need many of the rifles of at least one of those sub armies to finish equipping the 15 new RSA divisions completing their training this spring even after Wyrshym and Kaitswyrth make their donations.

Given the cited production rate, it could be May to June before a whole ICA army can be re-equipped with M96's [ie between 50-60,000 not counting transit time], and perhaps the smokeless powder will be ready at the same time, but it will be the ICA artillery which has yet to demonstrate most of its tricks that will continue to dominate the battlefields this year before the improved weapons replace them.

I've suggested before that the reequipping might proceed from north to south to ensure climate and weather don't interfere with the process over the rest of the year [and probably into 898], while DE's might be the quickest given his proximity to Thesmar especially if steam tugs do the barge towing. ;)

L


McGuiness wrote:
n7axw wrote:As for what happens in Safehold, my own guess is that at least among the leading nations, particularly Siddarmark and the EOC, but possibly also Dohlar, there is going to be a lot of creativity unleashed. In fact if the power of the inquisition is broken, I wouldn't be surprised to see the Temple Lands take off. Even after the hit they are going to take as the war winds down, there is a lot of money floating around there. Their traditional aristocracy, the vicars and archbishops, are going to be either gone or in turmoil. It's possible that they might have an altogether new arrangement.Don


If we were to rank the nations of Safehold according to their current level of innovation and manufacturing, it would be something like this:

#1 Empire of Charis (by an order of magnitude!)
#2 Temple Lands (Magwair's wizard better at creating practical designs from Charisian tech, gets stolen tech first, awash in money, has a good manufacturing base that's growing rapidly.
#3 Dohlar (Thirsk's wizard is the best outside of Charis and it has a dependable manufacturing base.)
#4 Siddarmark - will soon be #2 with Charisian tech transfers and has a massively expanding manufacturing base.
#5 Desnair (Mediocre manufacturing base, mediocre quality of manufacture, no innovation. A distant 5th...)
#6 South Harchong. Utterly corrupt but you can fire its cannon without having it explode in your face - maybe.
#7 North Harchong. Sixth only because Sodar is nothing but sheepherders and the Trellheim pirates don't manufacture anything. Products best used as scrap metal for Dohlar.

The various border states probably fall somewhere between North Harchong and Desnair. They aren't producing a lot of weapons, but they are providing a lot of warm bodies for Magwair to turn into soldiers.

As things currently stand in the war, Dohlar is the only CoGA allied nation that's clearly going to take it on the chin in its own territory. How that shakes out will largely determine the outcome of the war, since Desnair is largely out of it already, and South Harchong won't have a ship afloat once the ICN gets busy in the Gulf of Dohlar. North Harchong will be forced to ship all its men and supplies by land, and it has no canal system. It's contributed most of what it can already, now that the ICN is about to run wild in the Gulf of Dohlar! (THANK YOU RFC!)

He's laughing because I've been screaming for the ICN to take out Gorath and Thirsk since before MTaT.

By the end of HFQ, Dohlar may have fallen and the AoG may be driven completely out of Siddarmark. The wildcard is the 1.3 million man army of Harchongese, even though a large part of it remains cannon fodder. 640,000 rifles is nothing to sneeze at, especially when over 90,000 of them are breechloaders.

The M96 with bullets that use smokeless powder can't arrive soon enough! But once it does... :twisted:
Any snippet or post from RFC is good if not great!
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Re: The Navy of God against Charis naval superiority
Post by SYED   » Tue Oct 07, 2014 10:59 pm

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If they can act in the gulf of dohlar they could attack one end of the langhone canal, so mess up their supply logistics for this army. NO supplies, and the army will be a danger to the border states more than the republic.
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