"King Haarahld VI"-class, paint art

BobG wrote:

Dilandu wrote:Well, there she is: "King Haarahld VI", fast battleship/superiority demonstrator as i could describe her.

One thing seems clear to me from seeing this: it will scare the hell out of any non-Charisian naval personnel. Even those who saw the ironclad river barges (and survived) will find this a different and even more scary ship.

I'll be curious to see how many of the CoGA ships continue to attack when they are brought under accurate fire at several thousand yards.

-- Bob G

Looks VERY much like the RFS "Danton" class. (Obsolete when designed and launched)

lyonheart wrote:Hi Dilandu,

Are you seriously suggesting 25 pounder smooth-bores have the same range as rifled 8"or 10" guns?
***SNIP***
L

Dilandu wrote:
I really doubt that any CoGA ships would be operationg outside coastal waters against that ships. They would attack at night, or in straits and gulfs, were the space is limited. So, the range advantage of KH would be more or less theoretical, than the effect of 8-inch shells on unarmored wooden ships.

Lyonheart, I think what Dilandu means is that any conventional galleon is going to stay in coastal waters once the KHVIIs deploy. Therefore, any engagements are likely going to be at shorter range than they would be on the open ocean. He isn't trying to claim the 25 pound smoothbores can match the range of the 8" and 10" rifles. He is saying that under these conditions the range advantage is not going to be as important as it would be under different circumstances.

Henry Brown wrote:
Lyonheart, I think what Dilandu means is that any conventional galleon is going to stay in coastal waters once the KHVIIs deploy. Therefore, any engagements are likely going to be at shorter range than they would be on the open ocean. He isn't trying to claim the 25 pound smoothbores can match the range of the 8" and 10" rifles. He is saying that under these conditions the range advantage is not going to be as important as it would be under different circumstances.

To make that assertion the galleon must accept battle close to shore where the play of wind and wave present complicated and dangerous problems. Getting caught on a lee shore is just the least of the possible problems.

The KHVII can stay in deeper waters and shoot the poor galleon trying to survive by navigating a very limited set of manouver options which are obvious to everyone in the encounter. That sort to tactic is one of desperation and would result only in increasing the number of shells used to destroy the galleon. It would add nothing to the galleons ability to actually land solid shot on the KHVII's armour.

PeterZ wrote:

Henry Brown wrote:
Lyonheart, I think what Dilandu means is that any conventional galleon is going to stay in coastal waters once the KHVIIs deploy. Therefore, any engagements are likely going to be at shorter range than they would be on the open ocean. He isn't trying to claim the 25 pound smoothbores can match the range of the 8" and 10" rifles. He is saying that under these conditions the range advantage is not going to be as important as it would be under different circumstances.

To make that assertion the galleon must accept battle close to shore where the play of wind and wave present complicated and dangerous problems. Getting caught on a lee shore is just the least of the possible problems.

The KHVII can stay in deeper waters and shoot the poor galleon trying to survive by navigating a very limited set of manouver options which are obvious to everyone in the encounter. That sort to tactic is one of desperation and would result only in increasing the number of shells used to destroy the galleon. It would add nothing to the galleons ability to actually land solid shot on the KHVII's armour.

I didn't say I thought it was a winning strategy. For that matter, offhand, I can't think of ANY conditions where a wooden galleon with muzzleloading cannons could successfully engage something like a KHVII. It just seemed to me like earlier in the thread Lyonheart had misinterpreted something Dilandu posted. I was merely pointing that out.

Henry Brown wrote:
I didn't say I thought it was a winning strategy. For that matter, offhand, I can't think of ANY conditions where a wooden galleon with muzzleloading cannons could successfully engage something like a KHVII. It just seemed to me like earlier in the thread Lyonheart had misinterpreted something Dilandu posted. I was merely pointing that out.

I imagine even a KHVII would be in trouble if you dropped a war galleon on it from a few miles up.

What? You didn't specify that you were using the galleon as a warship!

InvisibleBison wrote:

Henry Brown wrote:
I didn't say I thought it was a winning strategy. For that matter, offhand, I can't think of ANY conditions where a wooden galleon with muzzleloading cannons could successfully engage something like a KHVII. It just seemed to me like earlier in the thread Lyonheart had misinterpreted something Dilandu posted. I was merely pointing that out.

I imagine even a KHVII would be in trouble if you dropped a war galleon on it from a few miles up.

What? You didn't specify that you were using the galleon as a warship!

Well no, I did NOT think about that. But even so, I believe I said a successful engagement. George Patton once said "The object of war is not to die for you country, but to make the other bastard die for his." To me THAT is a successful engagement. Having your ship dropped on another ship from a few miles up in a kamikaze mission were everybody "dies for their country" would be at best a draw.

Though I admit that the scenario you propose is probably a better outcome than any that the galleons could expect if they actually engaged a KHVII on the open seas. Now if *ONLY* the CoG had the airlift capability to drop a galleon onto a KHVII.

Henry Brown wrote:Lyonheart, I think what Dilandu means is that any conventional galleon is going to stay in coastal waters once the KHVIIs deploy. Therefore, any engagements are likely going to be at shorter range than they would be on the open ocean. He isn't trying to claim the 25 pound smoothbores can match the range of the 8" and 10" rifles. He is saying that under these conditions the range advantage is not going to be as important as it would be under different circumstances.

Surely the most important point must be that, as the KH VI is a fast steamship and hence not so subject to the vagaries of wind, wave and tide, she will be able to DICTATE the range at which any engagement takes place.

Gaining "the weather gauge" will be irrelevant

I do wonder, though, when Sir Dustyn is going to come up with the underwater bulbous bow that so improves hull efficiency

Well, while I don't think anybody's going to drop a war galleon on a KHVII , there's one aspect of "successful engagement" that you're missing.

That's the concept of "mission kill".

If Warship A has a given mission but Warship B is able to damage Warship A enough that it can't complete its mission, then it can be a "successful engagement" for Warship B even if it's lost with all hands.

After all, Warship B successfully prevented Warship A from completing its mission.

Henry Brown wrote:

InvisibleBison wrote:
I imagine even a KHVII would be in trouble if you dropped a war galleon on it from a few miles up.

What? You didn't specify that you were using the galleon as a warship!

Well no, I did NOT think about that. But even so, I believe I said a successful engagement. George Patton once said "The object of war is not to die for you country, but to make the other bastard die for his." To me THAT is a successful engagement. Having your ship dropped on another ship from a few miles up in a kamikaze mission were everybody "dies for their country" would be at best a draw.

Though I admit that the scenario you propose is probably a better outcome than any that the galleons could expect if they actually engaged a KHVII on the open seas. Now if *ONLY* the CoG had the airlift capability to drop a galleon onto a KHVII.

DrakBibliophile wrote:Well, while I don't think anybody's going to drop a war galleon on a KHVII , there's one aspect of "successful engagement" that you're missing.

That's the concept of "mission kill".

If Warship A has a given mission but Warship B is able to damage Warship A enough that it can't complete its mission, then it can be a "successful engagement" for Warship B even if it's lost with all hands.

After all, Warship B successfully prevented Warship A from completing its mission.

Henry Brown wrote:Well no, I did NOT think about that. But even so, I believe I said a successful engagement. George Patton once said "The object of war is not to die for you country, but to make the other bastard die for his." To me THAT is a successful engagement. Having your ship dropped on another ship from a few miles up in a kamikaze mission were everybody "dies for their country" would be at best a draw.

Though I admit that the scenario you propose is probably a better outcome than any that the galleons could expect if they actually engaged a KHVII on the open seas. Now if *ONLY* the CoG had the airlift capability to drop a galleon onto a KHVII.

I think the concept of "mission kill" only works if it is followed by a later victory. Because the "mission killed" ship has not been sunk, it has merely been badly damaged. So for a "mission kill" to truly be meaningful I think it must be followed up fairly quickly by a 2nd, more decisive battle. Otherwise the "mission killed" ship merely returns to port, makes repairs, and returns to battle later. In this sense, a "mission kill" is rather like a delaying action or a last stand in a land based conflict.

Two historical land based examples that I would compare to a naval "mission kill" would be the Battle of the Alamo and the Battle of Thermopylae. In both cases a small force of defender delayed and inflicted serious casualties on a vastly superior force. You might say that in each of these cases the Texans or the Spartans "mission killed" their foes.

However, I would also point out that in both these cases there was a 2nd subsequent battle shortly afterwards in which the "mission killed" army would loose badly. Had Xerses or Santa Anna's armies won the subsequent engagements than Thermopylae or The Alamo would not be as famous as they are now.

Henry Brown wrote:
Lyonheart, I think what Dilandu means is that any conventional galleon is going to stay in coastal waters once the KHVIIs deploy. Therefore, any engagements are likely going to be at shorter range than they would be on the open ocean. He isn't trying to claim the 25 pound smoothbores can match the range of the 8" and 10" rifles. He is saying that under these conditions the range advantage is not going to be as important as it would be under different circumstances.

Exactly. Please, forgive me if I could not explain it clearly enough.