HFQ Official Snippet #7

Annachie wrote:As for Hektor, a bump in rank is not unwarranted after a sucessful stint as flag luetenant, most of the navy that he's worked with would probably accept that he's on the fast track, and I'm suggesting posting him to the KHvii (hope I got the name right) if a ship of the class was given the name. Sure, he would have a little trouble using his extra knowledge, but it's a powerful message.

The difficulty with a plotline which focusses on Hector's continuing naval career is that a credible bump will only take him to Lt Commander and that's too low for independent command of anything interesting, or to effectively use his new knowledge from the inner circle. I'm not sure if it would even rate him for command of a schooner, which could have possibilities? (Comments?). At a stretch, I suppose he might become Exec on a river class with a 'red-shirt' captain.

As a member of the royal family with a wife and soon to be born kid I think his deck tromping days may well be over. But then he may well go as a link to intelligence from the snarks with the commander of the KH VIIs as a flag lieutenant. Will Hector have visions like Sejin Merlin? Only RFC knows for sure

Poker

Regarding Thirsk:

For the moment, I'm going to set aside his decision to hand Dohlar's POWs over to the Inquisition. There are complexities there that other people have pointed out, but the supreme authority of the Inquisition is a really hard point to get around, both practically and from the standpoint of CoGA-mandated morality.

There's a big secondary issue where I think Thirsk had less excuse from a "CoGA moral framework" point (though the same practical concerns) and that is the treatment of the POWs while they were in his custody. The Writ has a whole lot to say on the topics of nutrition and sanitation, backed by the threat of powerful "curses" (diseases of various types). It's made clear in the text that no exceptions are permitted on this point, since even when shipwrecked sailors cannot possible meet the Writ's requirements, they are still visited by Pasquale's wrath.

The Writ authorizes the Question in cases of heresy, but in my view, Thirsk should have put more weight on the point that the Inquisition was clearly and unequivocally violating the plain language of the Writ with regard to Pasquale's nutrition and sanitation requirements, and I don't recall a suggestion that the Book of Schueler has an automatic override clause. (In fact, I think Thirsk even mentions that the prison hulks have become a source of disease, and had made a few of the guards sick.)

I could see Thirsk backing down if the Inquisition had a dispensation from Clyntahn (in a way, similar to the later canal-destruction orders), but I don't believe that happened in this case.

More generally, I realize that Thirsk is trapped within a horrible situation and he knows it, but my sympathy for him has been on a steady decline. I think that Thirsk ought to have started looking for a way out a while back. Honor and loyalty are excellent, praiseworthy qualities, but when the Inquisition is willing to shred every bit of the Writ not found in the Book of Schueler, and generally comes off as a chorus line singing "We serve evil, yes we do, we serve evil--so will you!".... Thirsk is pretty close to the Moral Event Horizon in my view, and I'm not sure I think a redemption arc for him is worth it at this point.

Hi Tootall,

I believe Thirsk's wife is dead, so its 'only' his daughters and their families he's worried about.

L

tootall wrote:Thrisk---Again-

Recall when Duchairn was trying to get his nerve up to protest Clytahn's murders of the reformist vicars and their families?
He didn't because he knew that not only would it get him killed, but that his entire family would be tortured and then murdered.
Thrisk knows that the Grand Inquisitor ordered those atrocities. He likely knows that any remaining family of the Desnairian Naval command (that didn't flee) was gathered to Zion for the Punishment.

I do not blame him for wanting to spare his daughters having to watch their children tortured and murdered. I do not blame him for wanting to spare he and his wife being forced to watch those murders- followed by the torture and murders of his own children. Followed by their own torture and death.
It's one thing to sacrifice self- another to condemn your children to death--- after they watch the torture and death of their children.

Quite a bit of Thirsk-bashing going on I see

I suppose it's an easy thing to do- from a terran point of view. After all we are used to calling everything into question (as long as they leave our own articles of faith, whatever they may be, alone )

Safehold, however, has a society that has been strait-jacketed with an enormous lie, which until VERY recently has had never been opposed. The authority, not only of the writ, but of Langhorne's church is not only unquestioned, but unquestionable

Even now, people are only beginning to question the abuses of the PEOPLE CONTROLLING the church, not the church itself, not the writ, but the PEOPLE.
(for the most part anyway, there are a few exceptions, like Irys)

Take that authority, add in a hefty dose of patriotism, a father's (and grandfather's) fear for his family's safety, concern for the people under his command and a Noble's obligations to the system he is part of and you get what Merlin euphemistically referred to as a "complicated moral equation (CME)."

In many ways Thirsk reminds of Thomas Theisman from the Harrington series, Theisman served a regime that killed far more people then Clyntahn could in his wildest dreams, including people he knew- friends even.
Theisman even had to hand over Honor Harrington and her people to StateSec.
Still it took over a decade for him to ACT as people would have Thirsk act now.

Also, like Theisman, Thirsk finds the actions of his superiors to be morally reprehensible, but from the access to his thoughts of late, he is taking the first steps into solving his CME. Only time (and RFC) will tell if he succeeds.

CSB wrote:Regarding Thirsk:

For the moment, I'm going to set aside his decision to hand Dohlar's POWs over to the Inquisition. There are complexities there that other people have pointed out, but the supreme authority of the Inquisition is a really hard point to get around, both practically and from the standpoint of CoGA-mandated morality.

There's a big secondary issue where I think Thirsk had less excuse from a "CoGA moral framework" point (though the same practical concerns) and that is the treatment of the POWs while they were in his custody. The Writ has a whole lot to say on the topics of nutrition and sanitation, backed by the threat of powerful "curses" (diseases of various types). It's made clear in the text that no exceptions are permitted on this point, since even when shipwrecked sailors cannot possible meet the Writ's requirements, they are still visited by Pasquale's wrath.

The Writ authorizes the Question in cases of heresy, but in my view, Thirsk should have put more weight on the point that the Inquisition was clearly and unequivocally violating the plain language of the Writ with regard to Pasquale's nutrition and sanitation requirements, and I don't recall a suggestion that the Book of Schueler has an automatic override clause. (In fact, I think Thirsk even mentions that the prison hulks have become a source of disease, and had made a few of the guards sick.)

I could see Thirsk backing down if the Inquisition had a dispensation from Clyntahn (in a way, similar to the later canal-destruction orders), but I don't believe that happened in this case.

More generally, I realize that Thirsk is trapped within a horrible situation and he knows it, but my sympathy for him has been on a steady decline. I think that Thirsk ought to have started looking for a way out a while back. Honor and loyalty are excellent, praiseworthy qualities, but when the Inquisition is willing to shred every bit of the Writ not found in the Book of Schueler, and generally comes off as a chorus line singing "We serve evil, yes we do, we serve evil--so will you!".... Thirsk is pretty close to the Moral Event Horizon in my view, and I'm not sure I think a redemption arc for him is worth it at this point.

Thirsk did not make either of those decisions. They were taken away from him. In order to actually reverse the results, he would have needed the means to resist which he did not have.

As for looking for a way out, maybe he is. His story is not yet fully told.

Don

Something about Thirsk reminds me of a real life historical figure: Albrecht von Wallenstein, who was a general in the armies of the theocratic Holy Roman Empire/Catholic League and later Admiral of the Baltic Sea for the league, until 1630, active during the Thirty Years War between the empire/Catholic League and the Protestant Union. Wallenstein's use of tactics and technology meant he would almost always win his own battles, despite the fact that the rest of the imperials and church forces seemed to spend much of the war losing them. However, he was continuously held back by both imperial potentates and by the real life inquisition (or ordered by them to attack the enemy when he felt his forces were not ready).

Wallenstein was famously opposed to the Edict of Restitution of 1629, which empowered the League's inquisition to (violently) seize any property held by Protestant heretics... effectively a declaration of jihad. Countless thousands were killed or died of famine as a result of it, resulting in the extermination of up to one fourth the entire population of Germany by the end of the war. Wallenstein considered it a violation of the sovereignty of the individual states of Northern Germany and was apparently very disturbed that his forces were often ordered to attack and kill civilian "heretics" to enforce the religious edict, despite the fact that he himself was Catholic and loyal to the emperor and to Rome.

Wallenstein was removed from command in 1630, ostensibly for his arrogance (and suspected harboring of heretical views), and briefly recalled to lead a victorious series of battles that ultimately resulted in the death in battle of Gustavus Adolphus, the innovative and somewhat Cayleb-like general who led the Union's forces. Instead of giving him credit for these victories, he was sidelined and ordered to take his forces into increasingly suicidal battles with the enemy.

In 1631, while Wallenstein was still stripped of his command, League forces under two of Wallenstein's rivals - Pappenheim and Tilly - took the "heretic" German city of Magdeburg after a siege, and proceeded, in the name of the Edict, to commit genocide, raping, torturing and then slaughtering virtually the entire population of the major city. Contemporary reports said that "heretic" Protestant church sanctums were turned into rape, torture and execution centers for non-combatant women and children in an intentional act of desecration, among other horrors.

Reportedly, this war crime distressed Wallenstein to no end, but more importantly, it also caused the Union to revoke the use of quarter against League combatants.. in effect, a take-no-prisoners field policy. As a field commander concerned about the welfare of his own troops, this was a big problem for Wallenstein, fighting on a side prone to losing its battles. It also united much of Northern Germany behind the Union. Presumably in order to encourage Wallenstein to change his loyalties, Union commanders declared Wallenstein's personal estates to be a legitimate military target and proceeded to occupy them.

Once it became clear that the League would not revoke the Edict of Restitution or relax its application against allegedly heretic civilians, Wallenstein secretly opened up negotiations with the Union, probably in 1632, to defect with his 130,000 man army and the surviving squadrons of his naval fleet, with the goal of achieving "a just peace in the interests of a United Germany." He met secretly with officials of Brandenburg, Sweden and Saxony, but the emperor had him assassinated in 1633 using Irish and Scottish mercenaries before he could actually defect. He had been secretly excommunicated and convicted of treason before, although he may not have known it at the time they ran him through with halberds. Had he succeeded, the war could've been brought to a speedy, negotiated conclusion.

However, with his death. the war dragged on for another 15 years. Ironically, by the end of it, the League forces were pushed back not only to status quo ante the edict of holy war but well beyond the pre-war lines in many cases, effectively unravelling nearly a century of League military gains, all the way back to the Peace of Augsburg of 1555, at the cost of millions of lives. Had Wallenstein actually succeeded in his plan to force an early end to the war, much more of Europe would probably be Catholic today.

I figure its at least possible that Thirsk will eventually meet a similar fate, at the hands of either his king or the inquisition.

gbabafan Wrote:
Something about Thirsk reminds me of a real life historical figure: Albrecht von Wallenstein, who ...etc etc

Really informative--Thanks

gbabafan wrote:Something about Thirsk reminds me of a real life historical figure: Albrecht von Wallenstein, who was a general in the armies of the theocratic Holy Roman Empire/Catholic League and later Admiral of the Baltic Sea for the league, until 1630, active during the Thirty Years War between the empire/Catholic League and the Protestant Union. Thirsk's use of tactics and technology meant he would almost always win his own battles, despite the fact that the rest of the imperials and church forces seemed to spend much of the war losing them. However, he was continuously held back by both imperial potentates and by the real life inquisition (or ordered by them to attack the enemy when he felt his forces were not ready).

Wallenstein was famously opposed to the Edict of Restitution of 1629, which empowered the League's inquisition to (violently) seize any property held by Protestant heretics... effectively a declaration of jihad. Countless thousands were killed or died of famine as a result of it, resulting in the extermination of between up to one fourth the entire population of Germany by the end of the war. Wallenstein considered it a violation of the sovereignty of the individual states of Northern Germany and was apparently very disturbed that his forces were often ordered to attack and kill civilian "heretics" to enforce the religious edict, despite the fact that he himself was Catholic and loyal to the emperor and to Rome.

Wallenstein was removed from command in 1630, ostensibly for his arrogance (and suspected harboring of heretical views), and briefly recalled to lead a victorious series of battles that ultimately resulted in the death in battle of Gustavus Adolphus, the innovative and somewhat Cayleb-like general who led the Union's forces. Instead of giving him credit for these victories, he was sidelined and ordered to take his forces into increasingly suicidal battles with the enemy.

In 1631, while Wallenstein was still stripped of his command, League forces under two of Wallenstein's rivals - Pappenheim and Tilly - took the "heretic" German city of Magdeburg after a siege, and proceeded, in the name of the Edict, to commit genocide, raping, torturing and then slaughtering virtually the entire population of the major city. Contemporary reports said that "heretic" Protestant church sanctums were turned into rape, torture and execution centers for non-combatant women and children in an intentional act of desecration, among other horrors.

Reportedly, this war crime distressed Wallenstein to no end, but more importantly, it also caused the Union to revoke the use of quarter against League combatants.. in effect, a take-no-prisoners field policy. As a field commander concerned about the welfare of his own troops, this was a big problem for Wallenstein, fighting on a side prone to losing its battles. It also united much of Northern Germany behind the Union. Presumably in order to encourage Wallenstein to change his loyalties, Union commanders declared Wallenstein's personal estates to be a legitimate military target and proceeded to occupy them.

Once it became clear that the League would not revoke the Edict of Restitution or relax its application against allegedly heretic civilians, Wallenstein secretly opened up negotiations with the Union, probably in 1632, to defect with his 130,000 man army and the surviving squadrons of his naval fleet, with the goal of achieving "a just peace in the interests of a United Germany." He met secretly with officials of Brandenburg, Sweden and Saxony, but the emperor had him assassinated in 1633 using Irish and Scottish mercenaries before he could actually defect. He had been secretly excommunicated and convicted of treason before, although he may not have known it at the time they ran him through with halberds. Had he succeeded, the war could've been brought to a speedy, negotiated conclusion.

However, with his death. the war dragged on for another 15 years. Ironically, by the end of it, the League forces were pushed back to no only to status quo ante the edict of holy war but well beyond the pre-war lines in many cases, effectively unravelling nearly a century of League military gains back to the Peace of Augsburg 1555, at the cost of millions of lives. Had Wallenstein actually succeeded in his plan to force an early end to the war, much more of Europe would probably be Catholic today.

I figure its at least possible that Thirsk will eventually meet a similar fate, at the hands of either his king or the inquisition.

About the only thing that had changed by 1648 from 1618 was that Bohemia remained Catholic after the war was over, being the first victim of the Hapsburgs in 1618. The whole thing was a horrible waste that reduced Germany from a population of 15 million to about 5 million.

Don

n7axw wrote:Thirsk did not make either of those decisions. They were taken away from him. In order to actually reverse the results, he would have needed the means to resist which he did not have.

As for looking for a way out, maybe he is. His story is not yet fully told.

Don

If I remember correctly, the Charisian POWs were held under Thirsk's authority for months before the Inquisition demanded that they be turned over in preparation for the trip to Zion. I'm not saying he had full control over the situation--he didn't--but he had some, and failed to accomplish *anything morally useful whatsoever* with the single exception of collecting the letters at the very end. Quoting Pasquale's requirements from the Writ would have been *something.*

Thirsk may well be looking for a way out. He should have realized that necessity *long* before now and did not, and in the meantime, he is still aggressively pushing the technological development of Team Evil, to the point of threatening his own/his family's safety.

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shayvaan, the parallel with Thomas Theisman is interesting and reasonably convincing. I'm not sure why I have somewhat less sympathy for Thirsk as compared to Theisman, though I'd be willing to bet that if a later book has Thirsk standing over Rayno's body with a bloodied sword (after Clyntahn's earlier death), I'd probably like him more.