The Navy of God against Charis naval superiority

jgnfld wrote:

OlorinNight wrote:...

It may help, but you still need your powder to be dry. And have a way to detonate it from the boat itself. The torpedo not being for long in the water will help, it will not change anything if it is not sufficiently waterproofed...

Waterproof fuses are pretty straightforward. Every cherrybombs and m80s have had them since forever. My grandfather used to use "Dupont spinners" apparently a century ago to increase his fishing success.

I even accidentally got some trout that way once as a kid not meaning to--tied an m80 to a rock and threw it in a creek and well all of a sudden there some trout were just floating there asking to be taken home and fried.

Doesn't sound very sporting to me!

Don

Depends on how hungry you are.

n7axw wrote:

jgnfld wrote:
Waterproof fuses are pretty straightforward. Every cherrybombs and m80s have had them since forever. My grandfather used to use "Dupont spinners" apparently a century ago to increase his fishing success.

I even accidentally got some trout that way once as a kid not meaning to--tied an m80 to a rock and threw it in a creek and well all of a sudden there some trout were just floating there asking to be taken home and fried.

Doesn't sound very sporting to me!

Don

Wil propertorpedoes be introduced soon? Nothing like modern ones, these likely can only go in a straight line on the surface once launched. How much armor would be put on the hull at or beneath the water line. Or instead of a ship weapon, they could be a sea fort weapon, sort of like the torpedoes used on that island in the classic phantom movie.

SYED wrote:Wil propertorpedoes be introduced soon? Nothing like modern ones, these likely can only go in a straight line on the surface once launched. How much armor would be put on the hull at or beneath the water line. Or instead of a ship weapon, they could be a sea fort weapon, sort of like the torpedoes used on that island in the classic phantom movie.

Is is not wery possible. Fisrt of all, the Charis simply doesn't need them. And the Group of Four is too far behind the technology to build gyro-stabilised torpedo or even compact enough compressed air engine.

It is possible, hovewer, that someone from the Church side may came to something like Brennan guided torpedo: driven by rapidly pulling out wires from drums wound inside.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brennan_torpedo

Yes, some sort of simplified Brennan torpedo with a range only about 200-500 meters could be build, at least in pure theory on the Church current level. After all, they have a steel thistle for the wire.

That torpedo would probably be driven by single drum and single screw, pulling out by hand- or horse-pivoted mechanism on the coast.

The problem is the stabilization, but maybe it would be possible to control torpedo by another wire, connected to the rudder with a spring system - so that the different degrees of tension means the different rudder position.

With enough charge of even black powder and some pistol-type charges, it would be able to sunk any charisian galleon and make enough problems for ironclads. In rivers and narrow passages, such a weapon may be effective.

P.S. And after all, could Merlin at least do SOMETHING for another side to support there is a commitment to innovations? The Brennan-type torpedo wouldn't be able to really hit the Charisian operations, but it would demonstrate a lot to the other side engineers!

No, Dilandu, Merlin is not going to do anything to explicitly aid the CoGA war effort, not now, not ever. It would be an extremely counter productive and out of character thing to do, to put it mildly.

His highest aim is to establish a high technology science using civilisation on Safehold with internal peace and cohesiveness in order to go back out and defeat the Gbaba. (I suspect he thinks a relatively free society is the best matrix in which to achieve that.) To do that the power of the church needs to be thoroughly broken i.e. the EoC needs to win the war. Merlin wants to achieve his primary aim with as little bloodshed as possible so he will not prolong the war by feeding info to both sides. Also doing so would be seen as treason by most Charisians and could well cost him the trust he has built up there. Besides his sense of honor would not allow it; Merlin does not believe the ends justify any and all means. Then he hates the lie that the church represents and wants it destroyed as soon as possible, within the limits already mentioned.

The time to help the rest of Safehold to develop their science, innovation and industry is after they are out of the Church's power which currently means on the right side in the war. I am sure we will be seeing some innovators in Siddermark shortly, once they have caught up with what Charis has to teach them.

Well, i see at least one possible problem: the current technological progress is extremly concentrated. It could pretty easly make a way to a significant stagnation, simply because for the great charisian-siddamarkian alliance - after their victory - there wouldn't be a great need for innovations.

Of course, the progress, once started, couldn't be stopped, so they WOULD progress. After all, the Inner Circle would wor as a tug or pusher for all society. But the concurrent system would work much, much better, and desentralise the progress; so, if, for example, Charis in future turned into some kind of oppressing empire that actually slower progress in fear that it may harm their world domination - you must admit, that it isn't absolutely impossible, because humankind have a great talent to turn good ideas wrong - Safehold would have some reserve in Dohlar or former Temple Lands.

So if Merlin wasn't going to help the other side during war, maybe he should think about some concurrence AFTER the war?

Dilandu wrote:Well, i see at least one possible problem: the current technological progress is extremly concentrated. It could pretty easly make a way to a significant stagnation, simply because for the great charisian-siddamarkian alliance - after their victory - there wouldn't be a great need for innovations.

Of course, the progress, once started, couldn't be stopped, so they WOULD progress. After all, the Inner Circle would wor as a tug or pusher for all society. But the concurrent system would work much, much better, and desentralise the progress; so, if, for example, Charis in future turned into some kind of oppressing empire that actually slower progress in fear that it may harm their world domination - you must admit, that it isn't absolutely impossible, because humankind have a great talent to turn good ideas wrong - Safehold would have some reserve in Dohlar or former Temple Lands.

So if Merlin wasn't going to help the other side during war, maybe he should think about some concurrence AFTER the war?

I disagree strongly with the stagnation risk. Not because of the military side innovation but because of spinning jennies and powered looms. Those are the real key, as competitors outside Charis won't have any choice but to adopt them to survive economically. And it is a relatively easy step. Add a Singer style human powered sewing machine, and a few wood and metal shaping ones, and industrialisation cannot be stopped. Think that in Charis, a textile that was previously worth a prince ransom may soon be cheap enough to make sails ! People tend to notice those kind of things.

Remember that CHaris is sharing tech in Chilsom already, but also in Siddarmak. Also Safehold was shown to have a strong artisans foundation and their skills will translate easily. Once they are on the path of modernizing, all but the older masters will seek even more innovation. For this at least, Church is right, "change beget change".

Dilandu wrote:Well, i see at least one possible problem: the current technological progress is extremly concentrated. It could pretty easly make a way to a significant stagnation, simply because for the great charisian-siddamarkian alliance - after their victory - there wouldn't be a great need for innovations.

Of course, the progress, once started, couldn't be stopped, so they WOULD progress. After all, the Inner Circle would wor as a tug or pusher for all society. But the concurrent system would work much, much better, and desentralise the progress; so, if, for example, Charis in future turned into some kind of oppressing empire that actually slower progress in fear that it may harm their world domination - you must admit, that it isn't absolutely impossible, because humankind have a great talent to turn good ideas wrong - Safehold would have some reserve in Dohlar or former Temple Lands.

So if Merlin wasn't going to help the other side during war, maybe he should think about some concurrence AFTER the war?

I know that the role of the cold war in spuring innovation tends to come to our minds first because those of us who are a bit older lived through it. And for the rest of us it is at least recent history.

But there other models. William Rosen in "The Most Powerful Idea in the World" details the role of steam in setting off the industrial revolution. What really happened there was the transition from a muscle powered society to one powered by steam and eventually various forms of combustion.

Frankly, I think that the industrial revolution with the enomous amount of creativity that went with it is a far more likely model for Safehold than a cold war.

Don

n7axw wrote:
I know that the role of the cold war in spuring innovation tends to come to our minds first because those of us who are a bit older lived through it. And for the rest of us it is at least recent history.

But there other models. William Rosen in "The Most Powerful Idea in the World" details the role of steam in setting off the industrial revolution. What really happened there was the transition from a muscle powered society to one powered by steam and eventually various forms of combustion.

Frankly, I think that the industrial revolution with the enomous amount of creativity that went with it is a far more likely model for Safehold than a cold war.

Don

I would be careful about disregarding the influence of great power rivalry during the industrial revolution. In many ways the industrial revolution began as the Napoleonic Wars were ending, and while major wars were few for the next century, rivalries and threats of war were not. Major conflicts included the American Civil War, wars of German unification, and Crimean War.