What Checkov's Guns have you found in the Honorverse

wastedfly wrote:

crewdude48 wrote:

I think the last time the .3c limit was important was more recent than "never." Back in the pre impeller days it was important, as hydrogen catcher fields don't work in hyper, and they wanted to bring a much velocity across the wall as possible.

See that 'n' now???

Impellers mean zilch for this discussion. I don't care if your acceleration is from farting.

You have your own answer, "in hyper". 0.3c limit is for the change to hyper space ONLY. It has zero meaning once in hyper space.

I am aware of that. If you would like to try reading that again, what I was saying is that, in pre impeller days, the h-space capable ships would intentionally go as fast as possible in n-space before engaging their hyperdrive, so as to carry as much velocity as possible with them into hyper, due to the fact that the only fuel they could use while in hyper was what they brought with them, because hydrogen catcher fields do not work in hyper. You do remember Buckley's demise in the Honorverse, right?

crewdude48 wrote:More recently, I could think of a few times when it could be important. A raiding force, emerging from hyper, and carrying some velocity down with them, then cutting a cord across the system, not actually stopping, and jumping back up when they come out the other side. It could become a real issue if the system they were raiding had a stronger mobile defense force than the raiders could handle, and they had to run away.

Don't suppose you could pause first before banging a reply out by thinking for 3 odd seconds? Assuming I did not misplace a power of 10...

0.3c attained via @500g: Distance traveled is 9BILLION km.

Hyper limit on a very deep star system is what again? Call it 250Mkm to planet. From planet to Star is another 250Mkm at best, so even if one flew DIRECTLY THROUGH THE #$*%(*#@@)($) local star, it would only be a BILLION km. You might be amazed to know that Mars is a mere 250Mkm at its farthest point from sol. Mars is right on top of the hyper limit in the HV. Manticores Hyperlimit is 22LM or roughly 400Mkm for a total depth of 800Mkm.

Hmm what is larger, 9B or 0.5B or 0.8B? Nah, its the "0.8" obviously.

Dude...

crewdude48 wrote: in pre impeller days, the h-space capable ships would intentionally go as fast as possible in n-space before engaging their hyperdrive, so as to carry as much velocity as possible with them into hyper, due to the fact that the only fuel they could use while in hyper

Ah, oopsies. Sorry, too true.

wastedfly wrote:

crewdude48 wrote:More recently, I could think of a few times when it could be important. A raiding force, emerging from hyper, and carrying some velocity down with them, then cutting a cord across the system, not actually stopping, and jumping back up when they come out the other side. It could become a real issue if the system they were raiding had a stronger mobile defense force than the raiders could handle, and they had to run away.

Don't suppose you could pause first before banging a reply out by thinking for 3 odd seconds? Assuming I did not misplace a power of 10...

0.3c attained via @500g: Distance traveled is 9BILLION km.

Hyper limit on a very deep star system is what again? Call it 250Mkm to planet. From planet to Star is another 250Mkm at best, so even if one flew DIRECTLY THROUGH THE #$*%(*#@@)($) local star, it would only be a BILLION km. You might be amazed to know that Mars is a mere 250Mkm at its farthest point from sol. Mars is right on top of the hyper limit in the HV. Manticores Hyperlimit is 22LM or roughly 400Mkm for a total depth of 800Mkm.

Hmm what is larger, 9B or 0.5B or 0.8B? Nah, its the "0.8" obviously.

Dude...

Again, please read what I wrote. Your calculations are starting from zero, not the max velocity you could bring down from the alpha band with you, and my scenario assumes a military raiding force with an acceleration closer to 800 gs than to 500. I think that would reduce your 9 billion figure a bit? I don't have the math chops to figure out how much in my head, but then you also have to take into account that Sol like stars are not the only ones worth fighting over. There were Hancock Station and Seaford Nine just for starters, what were their hyper limits? How about TIY, what stellar class is it's main offices around? This could give more than your 800,000, up to IIRC almost twice that for the biggest stars.

wastedfly wrote:t= v/a = 300,000,000/500*10 = 60k s = 1000 minutes = you are joking.

500g, 60,000s, = distance traveled of 9 BILLION km.

One more quick question, shouldn't that be 90,000,000m/s (.3c not c) as the velocity? A quick calculate using your other numbers, and we get 18,000 seconds or 300 min.
Back to my calculator, Google the formula for displacement, and that gives us 810,000,000,000 meters, or 810 million KM, or just a little further across than the diameter of a Sol-like star's hyper limit. Could somebody check me on this?

crewdude48 wrote:

wastedfly wrote:t= v/a = 300,000,000/500*10 = 60k s = 1000 minutes = you are joking.

500g, 60,000s, = distance traveled of 9 BILLION km.

One more quick question, shouldn't that be 90,000,000m/s (.3c not c) as the velocity? A quick calculate using your other numbers, and we get 18,000 seconds or 300 min.
Back to my calculator, Google the formula for displacement, and that gives us 810,000,000,000 meters, or 810 million KM, or just a little further across than the diameter of a Sol-like star's hyper limit. Could somebody check me on this?

Ai, caramba, forgot to multiply by 0.3. I really really shouldn't post when I have a headache. Ye godz do I look dumb. Am on a role. 2 posts in a row. Sheesh. Sorry Dude.

Anyways, have to work really hard to reach 0.3 traveling through the star let alone a shorter chord approach.

crewdude48 wrote:

wastedfly wrote: For all intensive purposes

First, the most important part. What the heck is an intensive purpose? The saying is "For all intents and purposes." Intensive purposes is right up there with chester drawers (chest of drawers) as things that rustle my jimmies.

Then, on to the rest of your post.

wastedfly wrote:
And when was the last time any HV ship went past 0.3c in n space...? Try never.

For am 8Mton ship to hit 0.3c say from a parking orbit:
try 500g to start with obtains v=at

t= v/a = 300,000,000/500*10 = 60k s = 1000 minutes = you are joking.

500g, 60,000s, = distance traveled of 9 BILLION km.

Hyperlimits are expressed in couple hundred Million. For all intensive purposes not even a military hyper capable ship will even sniff 0.3c, let alone a freighter with a military drive.

I think the "breach" 0.3c into hyper limit can be put to bed, tucked in, and left to sleep for the foreseable HV future.

I think the last time the .3c limit was important was more recent than "never." Back in the pre impeller days it was important, as hydrogen catcher fields don't work in hyper, and they wanted to bring a much velocity across the wall as possible.

More recently, I could think of a few times when it could be important. A raiding force, emerging from hyper, and carrying some velocity down with them, then cutting a cord across the system, not actually stopping, and jumping back up when they come out the other side. It could become a real issue if the system they were raiding had a stronger mobile defense force than the raiders could handle, and they had to run away.

Do I think that it will be important commonly? No.
Would it be worth it to upsize the generators just to get to a higher limit? Again no.
Is it something that needs to be kept in mind? Most definitely.

The last time that I remember a raiding force is stated to exceed .3c was in The Honor of the Queen, where the Masadan raiding force that struck (while only HMS Madrigal was present from the RMN) exceeded the safe limit to translate to hyper by a significant amount (a top speed or around .5c IIRC). The character(s) (Madrigal's captain and/or bridge officers, and/or Admiral Coursouvier) noticed it and/or commented on it, either mentally or out loud (can't remember which at the moment). The speed that the Masadan raiding force built up was significant because they remained outside Yeltsin's hyper limit and therefore if they had stayed at or below .3c could have evaded by translating to hyper.

wastedfly wrote:

crewdude48 wrote:More recently, I could think of a few times when it could be important. A raiding force, emerging from hyper, and carrying some velocity down with them, then cutting a cord across the system, not actually stopping, and jumping back up when they come out the other side. It could become a real issue if the system they were raiding had a stronger mobile defense force than the raiders could handle, and they had to run away.

Don't suppose you could pause first before banging a reply out by thinking for 3 odd seconds? Assuming I did not misplace a power of 10...

0.3c attained via @500g: Distance traveled is 9BILLION km.

Hyper limit on a very deep star system is what again? Call it 250Mkm to planet. From planet to Star is another 250Mkm at best, so even if one flew DIRECTLY THROUGH THE #$*%(*#@@)($) local star, it would only be a BILLION km. You might be amazed to know that Mars is a mere 250Mkm at its farthest point from sol. Mars is right on top of the hyper limit in the HV. Manticores Hyperlimit is 22LM or roughly 400Mkm for a total depth of 800Mkm.

Hmm what is larger, 9B or 0.5B or 0.8B? Nah, its the "0.8" obviously.

Dude...

Well the raiding force might carry a base velocity as high as 0.048c with them from the Alpha translation into normal space. (92% velocity bleed-off from a 0.6c maximum safe hyperspace speed)

That said, even if you crashed in near a 22 lm hyper limit and ran a full accel fly-by on a straight line minimum distance tangent by a planet in an 11 lm orbit, you'd still only need to travel 19.05 lm before hitting the hyper limit again. At 500g, and carrying 0.048c in with you I make that just under 0.25c when you'd get there; still slow enough to jump out.

Now if instead of minimizing total distance in system, you instead optimized for minimum time to flyby the planet (so straight at it from the point on the hyper limit that puts the planet directly between the star and you), you'd then need to pike on a massive side vector to escape. That would require you to travel a lot further before gaining the hyper limit again, and you might need to worry about your maximum speed. (And a Manticoran raiding force that could accelerate at more like 600+ g could theoretically run into issues sooner)


And Vince alreayd posted the last time I remember it coming up the books; back in HotQ (chapter 14) [edited out my quote of it; because I missed his post initially].[/quote]

Yes, as I apologized to crewdude up thread, I pulled a classic moron move by forgetting to multiple the speed of light by, you guessed it, 0.3

Jonathan_S wrote:That said, even if you crashed in near a 22 lm hyper limit and ran a full accel fly-by on a straight line minimum distance tangent by a planet in an 11 lm orbit, you'd still only need to travel 19.05 lm before hitting the hyper limit again. At 500g, and carrying 0.048c in with you I make that just under 0.25c when you'd get there; still slow enough to jump out.

(And a Manticoran raiding force that could accelerate at more like 600+ g could theoretically run into issues sooner

wastedfly wrote:Yes, as I apologized to crewdude up thread, I pulled a classic moron move by forgetting to multiple the speed of light by, you guessed it, 0.3

Jonathan_S wrote:That said, even if you crashed in near a 22 lm hyper limit and ran a full accel fly-by on a straight line minimum distance tangent by a planet in an 11 lm orbit, you'd still only need to travel 19.05 lm before hitting the hyper limit again. At 500g, and carrying 0.048c in with you I make that just under 0.25c when you'd get there; still slow enough to jump out.

(And a Manticoran raiding force that could accelerate at more like 600+ g could theoretically run into issues sooner

Oops indeed. Still it was interesting to work out that even with a crash transit, on that particular flight path, you wouldn't run up against the 0.3c limit at that accel.



I occasionally think it would be interesting to try to build an actual honorverse maneuvering program that you could somehow input various acceleration vectors and have it do all the math to give you resultant courses and total velocity. (Also extend it to hyper so it calculates velocity drop going across hyperwalls, and accel in a grav wave)
And have it enforce limits like 0.8c (normal), 0.6c (hyper), 0.3c (hyper entrance)

But then I decide that would be a lot of trouble...


I've done the occasional calculation in excel, but it quickly gets tedious. For example I played with the Manticore to Gryphon transit - through n-space and then through hyper. But calculating the various options to figure out whether it's worth climbing all the hyper bands, or whether for such a short trip the cycle time and velocity drop outweigh the higher multiplier... Ugg.
(Plus that requires some info we don't have - specifically whether you can so a smooth continous transition up as high as you want, or if you have to go up band by band with a coooldown time for the hyper generator between each jump. (I know you can go down pretty much continuously - but it still takes a non-zero amount of time. There's a description of that, IIRC when Honor's convoy arrives at Grayson in HotQ)