The future of "Donkey"

Valen123456 wrote:Truth be told i am still not entirely clear about exactly a control link actually consists of. Whist i understand the coordination required for fire control and the impact of increased number of links on new Manticoran ships, im not clear on what the "link" actually is. Is it a frquency channel that requires more computer processing power, or is it a physical signal broadcaster/reciever for each missile tube?

Truth be told, none of use is entirely clear on it.

But from what we have been told, it is both a frequency and a physical transmitter. It is implied in several infodumps that one of the limitations on light-speed links is the amount of surface area you can dedicate to the links.

FTL links are a bit different. They require FTL comm capability, which involves the wedge and probably some physical processors. It is not clear whether it consumes surface area or just volume.

vietnamabc wrote:

SYED wrote:I wonder if htere is a donkey version used by LACs. It would allow a deployed squadron be able to increase their punch.

I think her system defense units she created will be crucial, especially combined with FTL comm and the longer range missiles. SAy they are spread accross the alliance systems, first with beowolf. I am hopping if the league makes a move, such system will keep them in check.

They have heard of the LAC systems, they have heard of the ftl tech, they have heard of the missiles, but is anyone in the league expecting the Haven defensive systems being so key. It will allow more ships to redeployed for raiding and convoy escort.

About raiding forces, perhaps the GA can figure out how to make missle pods and Keyhole small enough to be towed by frigate, we will have a frigate/destroyer raid force, frigate tow pod, destroyer tow key hole and raid infrastructures. Currently, GA's BC is enough to take out SLN wallers so I think these guys can handle local destroyers/cruisers.

Please! Do not utter/type the word "frigate" and "Grand Alliance" in the same sentence where David can hear/see it.

The ensuing multi-thousand word rant about people not paying attention to what he's been telling them about the state of Honorverse space technology for the last five-ten years will subtract significantly from his writing time on the next novel.

(Translation: This ain't gonna happen. The Nathan Hale class is a very specific, transient situation driven, aberration in a universe where the frigate spaceframe is about as passé as windjammers and sailing schooners are in our current world.)

dreamrider

Theemile wrote:

SYED wrote:I wonder if htere is a donkey version used by LACs. It would allow a deployed squadron be able to increase their punch.

I think her system defense units she created will be crucial, especially combined with FTL comm and the longer range missiles. SAy they are spread accross the alliance systems, first with beowolf. I am hopping if the league makes a move, such system will keep them in check.

They have heard of the LAC systems, they have heard of the ftl tech, they have heard of the missiles, but is anyone in the league expecting the Haven defensive systems being so key. It will allow more ships to redeployed for raiding and convoy escort.

A LACs hauling issue isn't tractor capability - which is the problem the donkey fixes - it is impeller power and fire control. Pods destroy a LAC's stealth and most of its accel. Also, LACs do not have the long range firecontrol to control MDMs effectively.

All a donkey will do is take the place of 1 of the 3 pods a LAC can (badly) haul now, not add more.

Now, LACs hauling along some pod-mounted CMs might be a topic worth kicking around.

dreamrider

dreamrider wrote:Now, LACs hauling along some pod-mounted CMs might be a topic worth kicking around.

dreamrider

It has been. CM Pods are not going to happen -- per RFC. He hasn't commented on Standard Pods loaded with Standard Canister
Rounds as supplemental magazines for LACs, though.

Weird Harold wrote:

dreamrider wrote:Now, LACs hauling along some pod-mounted CMs might be a topic worth kicking around.

dreamrider

It has been. CM Pods are not going to happen -- per RFC. He hasn't commented on Standard Pods loaded with Standard Canister
Rounds as supplemental magazines for LACs, though.

I believe that at the time he was scotching the idea (or need for) CM pods from major pod combatants. I totally agreed that was a non-starter even before he shot it down. However, CMs in pods carried by LACs out to the "extended CM battle zone" is a totally different tactical issue.

Now, there is an awful lot to be said for standardization wherever possible, so using standard pods with CM canisters is just fine with me. Theoretically, you could probably get more rounds into a custom-designed LAC deployable pod, but given control link limits, that might not be a competing factor vs using standard pods.

It actually sounds like something that Shannon and/or her people might suggest, given that the RHN has more operational experience with CM canister use.

dreamrider

I'm not sure the "Donkey" is still necessary. As I understand, it's purpose was to allow the RHN to deploy the massive numbers of pods they needed in order to fire salvos large enough to get through RMN point defense. But for fighting the Sollies, such large salvos are not needed because Sollie missile defense is not nearly as good as the RMN's. In fact, such massive salvos would be wasteful. I think that against the Sollies they could use the same number of missile pods in 2 or 3 better aimed salvos and would get a much higher number of hits than if they flushed the same number of pods in one huge "Donkey" salvo.

Valen123456 wrote:Truth be told i am still not entirely clear about exactly a control link actually consists of. Whist i understand the coordination required for fire control and the impact of increased number of links on new Manticoran ships, im not clear on what the "link" actually is. Is it a frquency channel that requires more computer processing power, or is it a physical signal broadcaster/reciever for each missile tube?

Warning Pet Peeve of HV: HV = HonorVerse

How do you control anything remotely today?

1) Information from object is Transmitted transmitter/antenna to an antenna/receiver. There are other things like op amps, balun, etc between the transmitter and antenna but, lets just call it part of the transmitter for now.

2) Frequency used, higher frequency = higher amount of bandwidth along with the data compression used can multiply the amount of data on a single frequency by 10X even using simple compression schemes. IE the higher the frequency the larger the number of sub frequencies one can use on the EXACT SAME FREQUENCY BAND buried in the signal itself. Why tens of thousands of people can all be on their cell phones downloading videos in the same place, using the exact SAME frequency. The amount of data needing to be transmitted after compression determines the number of frequency bands used if one has multiple tranceivers attached to a single antenna or multiple antennas.

3) Data is received, analyzed, sorted.

4) Operator, either human, or automatic computer response, then sends information to the transmitter.

XXXXXXX A transceiver is simply a transmitter/receiver in the same package. They both use the exact same antenna, op amps, etc. Some parts they do not, but a lot of same circuits they do. XXXXXXXXX

THIS IS the Communication and Command loop.

Now onto a "CONTROL LINK" Warning: Pet Peeve:

You have been warned. Enjoy the sarcasm.

MWW, RFC, DW, our celery thief-in-chief, has chosen to ignore the reality of #2 above and instead just call this a "CONTROL LINK". Reality states that the entire electromagnetic spectrum only has 'Z' bandwidth. AKA total amount of data one can possibly send before no more data can be processed. Doesn't matter how many ships/missiles present. Via Handwavium, a HV ship is limited to a tiny portion of this frequency spectrum, AKA, bandwidth when alone and YET, when there are HUNDREDS/THOUSANDS Of ships around, and near a MILLION missiles, these same ships have no problem using a different sub section of said same frequency spectrum that previously if the ship was completely alone, could not use.

In short, their TRANSCEIVERS and ANTENNA's present must cover the entire spectrum of frequency. Limiting certain ship types to certain frequencies sounds nice, until one notices they have to operate in squadron strength, multi squadron strength, task force strength, or all Holy messes like BoMa, where the opposition is ALSO using the exact same frequencies with huge numbers of squadrons as well.

Reality would state that each ship must have the exact same bandwidth when THOUSANDS of ships and MILLIONS of missiles are being fired as when they are ALONE. At a minimum must have a large portion of this bandwidth available, otherwise they would not be able to Use said frequencies to begin with. IE have the specialized gear to operate in said specific frequency along with the antennas, but refuse to use them when alone.

In short, a "CONTROL LINK" in the Honorverse is an irrational construct artificially created to limit ship design as a factor that "must-be-overcome" by our heroes. Therefore further distinguishing them as our heroes and showing how "brilliant" they are.

Now, put the blinders back on and enjoy the series.

OFF Pet PEEVE rant:

wastedfly wrote:

Valen123456 wrote:Truth be told i am still not entirely clear about exactly a control link actually consists of. Whist i understand the coordination required for fire control and the impact of increased number of links on new Manticoran ships, im not clear on what the "link" actually is. Is it a frquency channel that requires more computer processing power, or is it a physical signal broadcaster/reciever for each missile tube?

Warning Pet Peeve of HV: HV = HonorVerse

How do you control anything remotely today?

1) Information from object is Transmitted transmitter/antenna to an antenna/receiver. There are other things like op amps, balun, etc between the transmitter and antenna but, lets just call it part of the transmitter for now.

2) Frequency used, higher frequency = higher amount of bandwidth along with the data compression used can multiply the amount of data on a single frequency by 10X even using simple compression schemes. IE the higher the frequency the larger the number of sub frequencies one can use on the EXACT SAME FREQUENCY BAND buried in the signal itself. Why tens of thousands of people can all be on their cell phones downloading videos in the same place, using the exact SAME frequency. The amount of data needing to be transmitted after compression determines the number of frequency bands used if one has multiple tranceivers attached to a single antenna or multiple antennas.

3) Data is received, analyzed, sorted.

4) Operator, either human, or automatic computer response, then sends information to the transmitter.

XXXXXXX A transceiver is simply a transmitter/receiver in the same package. They both use the exact same antenna, op amps, etc. Some parts they do not, but a lot of same circuits they do. XXXXXXXXX

THIS IS the Communication and Command loop.

Now onto a "CONTROL LINK" Warning: Pet Peeve:

You have been warned. Enjoy the sarcasm.

MWW, RFC, DW, our celery thief-in-chief, has chosen to ignore the reality of #2 above and instead just call this a "CONTROL LINK". Reality states that the entire electromagnetic spectrum only has 'Z' bandwidth. AKA total amount of data one can possibly send before no more data can be processed. Doesn't matter how many ships/missiles present. Via Handwavium, a HV ship is limited to a tiny portion of this frequency spectrum, AKA, bandwidth when alone and YET, when there are HUNDREDS/THOUSANDS Of ships around, and near a MILLION missiles, these same ships have no problem using a different sub section of said same frequency spectrum that previously if the ship was completely alone, could not use.

In short, their TRANSCEIVERS and ANTENNA's present must cover the entire spectrum of frequency. Limiting certain ship types to certain frequencies sounds nice, until one notices they have to operate in squadron strength, multi squadron strength, task force strength, or all Holy messes like BoMa, where the opposition is ALSO using the exact same frequencies with huge numbers of squadrons as well.

Reality would state that each ship must have the exact same bandwidth when THOUSANDS of ships and MILLIONS of missiles are being fired as when they are ALONE. At a minimum must have a large portion of this bandwidth available, otherwise they would not be able to Use said frequencies to begin with. IE have the specialized gear to operate in said specific frequency along with the antennas, but refuse to use them when alone.

In short, a "CONTROL LINK" in the Honorverse is an irrational construct artificially created to limit ship design as a factor that "must-be-overcome" by our heroes. Therefore further distinguishing them as our heroes and showing how "brilliant" they are.

Now, put the blinders back on and enjoy the series.

OFF Pet PEEVE rant:

In a sense though, you have answered your own peeve. Thousands of people who download to their phones without getting scattered data.

I'd imagine each missile launched from x ship has it's own IP address for lack of a better name. Similar to today's missiles they are not easy to 'hack' someone else's nukes in HV you can't hack another ships missiles (unless they planned the handoff as evidenced in BoMa and I think Battle of Lorn or Solon)


It's a pretty common trope in all sci-fi space battles to have limited torpedo/missile firing of unhackable projectiles.

Since I was pm'd over my response, I'm going to expand upon my previous post, with part of my reply.

Control links are more or less functionally identical to cellphones, Predator UAV controls, and modern missiles. Sure, there's more than likely a little handwavium involved, but it's still the same principals.

And thinking about the subject more... control links = transmitters plain and simple, due to this little thing called "redundancy" that most militaries like to have. If you rely totally on one transmitter, and it gets damaged, you can't control any missiles period.

By having a &^%$-ton of "control links", aka transmitters, you're going to be able to keep controlling your missiles, so long as your ship remains more or less in one piece. But the missiles have to operate more like the internet, with specific IP address things, which addresses the point, that somehow millions of missiles can be thrown around without ever seemingly losing connection to the missiles.

Most ships, particularly prior to the return of pods, only had enough control links to control as many missiles as they could launch per broadside, and then likely given a redundancy factor of between 50% and 100% to account for battle damage. My thought is these control links are probably built directly into the missile launchers themselves, with additional transmitters being on the top&bottom of the hull where they can be used to assist in controlling either broadside.

As pods returned, and missile salvo's started to ever increase, the need to have more and more transmitters, aka control links, to ensure connection to the missiles through whatever "control link"-to-missile ratio is used. It's got to be higher than 1:1, but with the thought of exactly how much data needs to be getting sent, regarding EW & target data, navigational information and other data, 1:1 might actually be about right.

----

To return to the topic, the donkey is probably dead, because as stated, the original purpose was basically the low-tech version of the RMN's flatpack pod, with its own internal tractor beam. Foraker (and by extension the entire Havenite Navy) couldn't match that degree of miniaturization, let alone power it, so they chose to split the job in two.

Tractor the Donkey and beam power to it, which powered the Donkey's own tractors (and power emitter) which then usually went to the armed pods.

With Haven's entry into the GA, Havenite forces would simply start using flatpack pods, especially after new missile production lines are built. Andermani likely also have their own flatpack production, but thats likely to stay with their own forces. And excluding the pods that Technodyne produced, nobody else has pods and by extension could even use Donkeys.

The problem with your explanation is that you don't have to give detailed direction to every missile. Consider an Army company being marched. Does the commander have to explain to every single person how he expected them to move, or give them detailed instructions. No, he gives a broadcast command, like "forward, march" and everyone starts marching forward.

The minimum needed for a missile to attack someone is a vector, acceleration profile and distance. You can send that to every single missile at the same time.