Bad Wormholes?

The core of my argument had to do with the need to cover Torch. The pods and Sag-Cs were only a suggestion and I agree that LACs or perhaps less capable Haven heavy cruisers or even BCs could do the job.

Unless things have fallen into the proverbial crapper a lot further than they have at this point for MAlign, I don't think you will see Mannerheim naval forces directly involved. Their mo at this point is to stay concealed and I think that they will continue to do so until their hand is forced.

Don

The Torch Wormhole is about the only place I can think of where the x-SLN SD's could be useful, primarily as energy weapons platforms with minimal crews as an initial defense.
They're still manpower intensive and targets against a modern navy, but a transiting ship has a moment of vulnerability during transition from sail to wedge.

Stewart

Hutch wrote:

kzt wrote:The lady who was the MAN controller and also a Mesa navy officer was on the ship and agreed to surrender the squadron. Everything after that is conjectural. So we know pretty much nothing about what happened after that. Based on CoG we can probably assume that the MAN officer didn't have a frank, heart to heart talk with the Torch leadership, but other then that I have no idea what David is planning, and neither do you.

I can think of tricks that would make it virtually impossible to find a destruct charge without effectively disassembling the ship, like a shaped charge inside the fusion reactor mounting cradle, which you can only see after dismounting the reactor. Somehow I doubt they often do this outside a shipyard.

True enough, friend kzt, but IIRC from Cauldron of Ghosts, those ex-Havenite ships were being sent to Haven for re-furbishment/upgrades before entering the RTN..which also gives the Torches time to recruit and train crews.

And between the overhaul and naturally suspicious streak of the ex-slaves of anything connected to Manpower...I think the odds are high that the charges have been found.

But I could be wrong--author's preogative.

And I do think they'll keep an eye on it anyway. Remember Kare and Wix are still alive and well and have a vested interest in finding out what happened to their shipmates and friends on the Harvest Joy.

We shall see...eventually.

I would also add, the suspicious streak of the Havenites involved in the refit for anything State Security. The ship was built for professional paranoids - it might have self-destruct systems built in by Haven (which the crew might not know about, or have mentioned).

stewart wrote:The Torch Wormhole is about the only place I can think of where the x-SLN SD's could be useful, primarily as energy weapons platforms with minimal crews as an initial defense.
They're still manpower intensive and targets against a modern navy, but a transiting ship has a moment of vulnerability during transition from sail to wedge.

Stewart

Too much crew requirement. Highly inefficient, even compared to putting up some much less robust (NOT fortress) defense control platforms purpose built from scratch.

Heck, for that matter, with the rapprochement between the star nations, both Manticore and Haven probably have a few fairly recent model fortresses that could be maneuvered to Torch. If anyone in Torch or Manticore or Haven were to have any reason to suspect a need to heavily defend the unusable Torch terminus.

Which they don't.

dreamrider

Given that forts don't have hyper drives, I suspect that the problem will be resolved by the time the forts can maneuver themselves to Torch.

kzt wrote:Given that forts don't have hyper drives, I suspect that the problem will be resolved by the time the forts can maneuver themselves to Torch.

Heh. They'd have to bring in several repair ships and build the fortresses there, then build the support structures to support the fortresses. ie, they would have to build an entire space industry just to be able to support the fortresses without having to constantly call upon the SEM/RH for spare parts and mechanics/technicians.

HHm.. a thought, what do you think of them giving Torch a boost to their economy by using it as a possible fleet base? If I remember right, Torch is outside of the SL, but close enough it would make a decent staging base. It wouldn't have to be a large base, but it would give the GA, and in this case the RH an excuse to project their power, as well as giving the Torchers (Torchites? Torchies?) access to modern tech and technicians that could teach them how to use/make the things they need. Say the base is under lease for 100 years. that gives the GA an out if someone brings it up and gives the GA a damned good reason to have forces staged in the Torch system to keep an eye on the wormhole as well as that quadrant of the SL (and to give the Mayan sector governor aid if he needs it). It seems to solve several problems and won't inconvenient the GA that much. Haven could foot the bill for this too since they are closer than the SEM without using the wormholes.

kzt wrote:Given that forts don't have hyper drives, I suspect that the problem will be resolved by the time the forts can maneuver themselves to Torch.

Manticore has relocated forts before. In the case I seem to recall, they may have used modular forts that were towed to position for final assembly.

Further, do we KNOW that there are no relocatable forts with hyper capability? They certainly have impellers (not that that says anything about supporting hyper capability.) A design for a relocatable fort, at least with the capability to be moved through the MWHJ, would seem to make imminent sense for Manticore to have at least studied.

dreamrider

dreamrider wrote:

kzt wrote:Given that forts don't have hyper drives, I suspect that the problem will be resolved by the time the forts can maneuver themselves to Torch.

Manticore has relocated forts before. In the case I seem to recall, they may have used modular forts that were towed to position for final assembly.

Further, do we KNOW that there are no relocatable forts with hyper capability? They certainly have impellers (not that that says anything about supporting hyper capability.) A design for a relocatable fort, at least with the capability to be moved through the MWHJ, would seem to make imminent sense for Manticore to have at least studied.

dreamrider

IIRC, they did indeed assemble modular forts at both Lynx and Trevor's Star. But both of those were just on the other side of the wormhole.

But you do have to have Warshawskis to get through a wormhole... so maybe you could get them into hyper and transport them that way.

At any rate, by way of comparison to Lynx and Trevor's Star, Torch is a long way away.

If you were going to look at it in those terms, it would probably be more practical to use SDs, maybe Sphinxes or Gryphons slightly modified to add missile links. (Yes, I know, crew intensive, Yes, I know, overkill.)

But looked at in another way, maybe an opportunity to train Torchies on the job in larger numbers. And given the expansion of their drug industry, they probably have the bucks to finance the project or at least make a substantial contribution.

One way or another, the goal should be to beef up Torch's navy to the point where they could assume the responsibility themselves. This might be one way to go about it.

Don

Zakharra wrote:..... HHm.. a thought, what do you think of them giving Torch a boost to their economy by using it as a possible fleet base? If I remember right, Torch is outside of the SL, but close enough it would make a decent staging base. It wouldn't have to be a large base, but it would give the GA, and in this case the RH an excuse to project their power, as well as giving the Torchers (Torchites? Torchies?) access to modern tech and technicians that could teach them how to use/make the things they need. Say the base is under lease for 100 years. that gives the GA an out if someone brings it up and gives the GA a damned good reason to have forces staged in the Torch system to keep an eye on the wormhole as well as that quadrant of the SL (and to give the Mayan sector governor aid if he needs it). It seems to solve several problems and won't inconvenient the GA that much. Haven could foot the bill for this too since they are closer than the SEM without using the wormholes.

Ummmm, based on Cauldron of Ghosts, it looks like Torch is more interested in the budding Erewhon/Maya Sector alignment (with Haven as a silent ally). Makes sense, as those are it's nearest neighbors and likely trading/development partners.

Not that the GA will be ignored, not with Berry and Princess Ruth around, but I see a closer relationship with the Maya/Erewhon folks in their future.

We shall see, eventually.

Hutch wrote:

Zakharra wrote:..... HHm.. a thought, what do you think of them giving Torch a boost to their economy by using it as a possible fleet base? If I remember right, Torch is outside of the SL, but close enough it would make a decent staging base. It wouldn't have to be a large base, but it would give the GA, and in this case the RH an excuse to project their power, as well as giving the Torchers (Torchites? Torchies?) access to modern tech and technicians that could teach them how to use/make the things they need. Say the base is under lease for 100 years. that gives the GA an out if someone brings it up and gives the GA a damned good reason to have forces staged in the Torch system to keep an eye on the wormhole as well as that quadrant of the SL (and to give the Mayan sector governor aid if he needs it). It seems to solve several problems and won't inconvenient the GA that much. Haven could foot the bill for this too since they are closer than the SEM without using the wormholes.

Ummmm, based on Cauldron of Ghosts, it looks like Torch is more interested in the budding Erewhon/Maya Sector alignment (with Haven as a silent ally). Makes sense, as those are it's nearest neighbors and likely trading/development partners.

Not that the GA will be ignored, not with Berry and Princess Ruth around, but I see a closer relationship with the Maya/Erewhon folks in their future.

We shall see, eventually.

Hi Hutch,

I remember reading that too. And it does indeed make sense. But that doesn't necessarily exclude the idea since in all probability the two groups will be on good terms and cooperating together.

Don