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Has the Mesan Alignment already lost?

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Re: Has the Mesan Alignment already lost?
Post by evilauthor   » Mon Sep 22, 2014 1:46 am

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tonyz wrote:The MAlign has one big advantage: it's a single force and not a coalition. It's techniques of using diplomatic judo throws to turn a much stronger opponent against itself will probably be applied in spades. The difficulty will be that they don't have the deeplai s groundwork that they did in the Solarian League.


That's also arguably its weakness. It's a singular faction, but it's not a very big faction. Its diplomatic judo is considerably less effective when its enemies realize that it uses it. And sooner or later, it's going to have to meet the GA in open battle, which is NOT their forte.

I agree with others have said though. The mere existence of the GA is enough to put the kibosh on the Allignment's plan. Instead of everyone flocking to the Renaissance Factor's banner, they're going to split between the RF and the GA. The GA is simply not the bogeyman the old People's Republic of Haven was, and a bogeyman is what the MA's Plan really needed to drive everyone to the RF.
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Re: Another Different Point Of View
Post by cralkhi   » Mon Sep 22, 2014 2:57 am

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Makes sense. A total galactic war of destruction where pretty much every inhabitable planet is totally wrecked and the rest "bombed back to the stone age" would leave them in a very strong position, if they could have one hidden planet (like Darius) survive with a good tech base.

But I think that's much darker than is likely to happen in this series.

HB of CJ wrote:First off, the usual dis qualifiers. I do not have the physical time to research and deliver specific time frames and events. Too little daily time. This Excellent Forum must compete with other Forums. Hope you all understand.

I look at it differently. Who can hurt the Grand Alliance, (GA) and how badly and when? The Sollies have painted themselves into a horrible corner. They must respond to the GA, (mostly Mantie) defenses and successes BY ATTACKING.

But...direct Sollie attacks do not work. But wars can be fought by other means. Kinetic planetary strikes? How badly could the GA be shattered by last ditch successes by the Sollies ... even with no chance for a Sollie victory?

Then what about the Mal-alignment? (MA) They pulled off Oyster Bay. What else do they have in their shot locker? How easy do they want to go into the night? How bad could the war become for the GA? Wow! Very ugly indeed. Just me.

No rules. No laws. No morality. Just vindictive destruction. Plagues. Kinetic strikes. Poison the wells. Salt the fields. Lots of historical references. Punic wars? Things could get very very nasty for all sides quickly.

YIKES indeed! HB of CJ (old coot) Cm. I love this Excellent Forum. Just fun easy thinking! :) (sometimes overly morbid)
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Re: Has the Mesan Alignment already lost?
Post by Hutch   » Mon Sep 22, 2014 8:54 am

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Weird Harold wrote:
Amaroq wrote:The formation of the GA might almost be more disastrous than the Alignment getting "outed" before it was ready. It was a concentration of power that the Alignment's planners couldn't have foreseen. It also represents another player that has the strength to stand up to the League and the Alignment.


On the contrary, the GA or at least an alliance between Haven and Manticore has been the target of the MAlign for a century or so. Starting with the rise of the Legislaturalists and Dolists in Haven to the assassination of King Roger, they've done everything they could to keep Haven and Manticore hostile to each other.


Friend Harold:

It may be that I am suffering from Too-Early Monday Morning syndrome (it often lasts until Wednesday afternoon... 8-) ), but it appears that you and Amaroq are strongly in agreement here?
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What? Look, somebody's got to have some damn perspective around here! Boom. Sooner or later. BOOM! -LT. Cmdr. Susan Ivanova, Babylon 5
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Re: Has the Mesan Alignment already lost?
Post by Weird Harold   » Mon Sep 22, 2014 12:09 pm

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Hutch wrote:It may be that I am suffering from Too-Early Monday Morning syndrome (it often lasts until Wednesday afternoon... 8-) ), but it appears that you and Amaroq are strongly in agreement here?


Nope, at least not on the point that the GA couldn't be anticipated by the MAlign; it has been anticipated and the MAlign has done everything it could to prevent the GA from forming. (Not the GA precisely, but an alliance between Haven and Manticore.)
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Re: Has the Mesan Alignment already lost?
Post by Hutch   » Mon Sep 22, 2014 1:26 pm

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Weird Harold wrote:
Hutch wrote:It may be that I am suffering from Too-Early Monday Morning syndrome (it often lasts until Wednesday afternoon... 8-) ), but it appears that you and Amaroq are strongly in agreement here?


Nope, at least not on the point that the GA couldn't be anticipated by the MAlign; it has been anticipated and the MAlign has done everything it could to prevent the GA from forming. (Not the GA precisely, but an alliance between Haven and Manticore.)


Ah, amazing what a few hours and several ingestions of caffeine will do. I now see the difference, and tend to agree with you, Harold.

Amaroq, Haven was (for quite some time, according to the MWW) a major force for "good" (depending on one's definition) and admired and be-friended by folks like Manticore and Beowulf. Destablizing them was a MAlignment move early on, IIRC (I hope MWW will address this in the Haven Sector "House of" book).
***********************************************
No boom today. Boom tomorrow. There's always a boom tomorrow.

What? Look, somebody's got to have some damn perspective around here! Boom. Sooner or later. BOOM! -LT. Cmdr. Susan Ivanova, Babylon 5
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Re: Has the Mesan Alignment already lost?
Post by roseandheather   » Mon Sep 22, 2014 3:06 pm

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Weird Harold wrote:
Hutch wrote:It may be that I am suffering from Too-Early Monday Morning syndrome (it often lasts until Wednesday afternoon... 8-) ), but it appears that you and Amaroq are strongly in agreement here?


Nope, at least not on the point that the GA couldn't be anticipated by the MAlign; it has been anticipated and the MAlign has done everything it could to prevent the GA from forming. (Not the GA precisely, but an alliance between Haven and Manticore.)


If I recall correctly, it has been hinted that the DuQuesne Plan which produced the PRH - and turned Haven from my Athens of the Stars into something that would even frighten Stalin - was in fact engineered by the MAlign.
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Re: Has the Mesan Alignment already lost?
Post by Bahzellstudent   » Mon Sep 22, 2014 4:44 pm

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I think the big thing that has changed is that key players outside Mesa/The Detweilers/Renaissance now have a basic understanding of what has been happening - whereas when the Detweilers 'escaped' from Beowulf, everyone else thought that they had died out.

I can't see anyway that the MA/Detweiler faction can now 're-bury' themselves - so even though they may go into deep hiding from some further hidden planet, the core families and dynasties in Manticore and Haven and Beowulf are not going to forget them, no matter how long they hide for next time
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Re: Has the Mesan Alignment already lost?
Post by Weird Harold   » Mon Sep 22, 2014 5:14 pm

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roseandheather wrote:If I recall correctly, it has been hinted that the DuQuesne Plan which produced the PRH - and turned Haven from my Athens of the Stars into something that would even frighten Stalin - was in fact engineered by the MAlign.


I don't know that the MAlign was directly responsible for the DuQuesne Plan but they were definitely behind to social changes that led to a need for something like it to keep the Dolists pacified.
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Re: Another Different Point Of View
Post by vietnamabc   » Mon Sep 22, 2014 11:14 pm

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cralkhi wrote:Makes sense. A total galactic war of destruction where pretty much every inhabitable planet is totally wrecked and the rest "bombed back to the stone age" would leave them in a very strong position, if they could have one hidden planet (like Darius) survive with a good tech base.

So will it be like Foundation but this time the bad guy is the Foundation?
Seldon master plan = Renaissance Factor
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Re: Has the Mesan Alignment already lost?
Post by Horto   » Tue Sep 23, 2014 12:06 pm

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Y'all are forgetting one huge impediment to the MA's usual methods. Roseandheather said it best " and the galaxy's entire population of treecats."

I was once known as Tinpusher.
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