What about DN(P)s for the GA?

dreamrider wrote:A DN(P) is an inherently inefficient design.
Why?
Because of the (P).

Why would a pod design be inherently inefficient?

One of the often overlooked advantage of a pod design is the ability to use many different models of missiles; It is mentioned that Michelle Henke's BC(P) squadron could have been loaded with Mk23 pods at the cost of fewer rounds than their actual load of Mk16 pods. A pod design doesn't need to be upgraded whenever a newer/better missile design comes along, and even a BC(P) can be loaded with Apollo pods (whether for control with light-speed control links or control by an accompanying SD(p)'s FTL links)

A DN(p) would be totally versatile -- fast enough to be flagship for BC(p) squadrons, yet tough enough to stand in the wall at need. It would never suffer from obsolete offensive power and with pod-based ECM/RD capability need not be obsolete in passive defense either.

SWM wrote:You are misremembering. First, the Detweilers were not mentioned at all in Torch of Freedom, as far as I can tell. They are mentioned for the first time in Storm from the Shadows, in the thoughts of the captain of one of the Sharks approaching Manticore. Second, the text never specifies the size of the Detweilers. All it says is that the Sharks were intended to be training vessels for the men who would crew the Detweilers. The Shark class is "about midway between an old-fashioned battleship and a dreadnought for size." We can infer that the Detweilers are larger, but we don't have any textev for how big. There certainly is no evidence that they are 20 MT.

It was explicitly stated the sharks were 4MT.

It was not stated how big the Detweilers were going to be, other than bigger.

There are lots of people, including me, who think they will be very, very big.

Weird Harold wrote:
A DN(p) would be totally versatile -- fast enough to be flagship for BC(p) squadrons, yet tough enough to stand in the wall at need. It would never suffer from obsolete offensive power and with pod-based ECM/RD capability need not be obsolete in passive defense either.

A DN(P) would be useless as a flagship for a BC(P) squadron for one simple reason - any DN(P) will be slower than any BC(P) at a given level of compensator technology. Put a DN(P) in a BC(P) squadron and you have a mongrel formation that maneuvers like a squadron of the wall but only has a bit more firepower than a BC(P) squadron - the worst of both worlds.

Daf:

What is the deal with your proclivity for sending a singleton waller waltzing around the universe?

Wallers never watltz around in singletons. In fact, it is extraordinary for a single division to be by itself as was the case at Solon.

You build wallers, for well, a squadron level WALL with integrated offense/defense. For squashing HARD targets.

Not tip toeing through the tulips.

Got a flower problem? Send in the BC's.

A rodent problem? Send in the CA's.

A fly problem? Send in the CL's.

Hi WastedFly,

Given the power of the SDP, and the several hundreds the GA has, the day of the old BF SD's is disappearing quickly so that the meaning of the capitol ship and the defensive 'wall' are undergoing a paradigm change.

RFC makes several references to the 'wall' acting as a shield for the CLAC's etc, but the SLN's ability to threaten ships well out of it missile range makes that need somewhat moot for the duration of the elimination of the SLN, while the Apollo's ability to outmaneuver or avoid the 'wall' to hit other targets behind it or at extended ranges like CLAC's etc seem to further reduce the need for the 'wall'.

Rather than building DNP's [Sharon will be opposed to the concept from the get go since the RHN doesn't need it, though the period before the RMN can build new SDP's is the best time to do it], the GA will simply send a pair of its older SDP's, with a pair of CLAC's and screen to sort out most problems requiring its attention, without the nuisance of building a weak new capitol ship and all the hassles such involve.

Once the mandarin attack on Beowulf demonstrates how much a threat they are to the rest of the league, since among other things they're attacking the planet not the wormhole which is the military threat justifying the whole attack, the BF reserve is toast.

Since the active BF is only around 1500 SD's and barely 20% of the SD's who've met the GA have survived in one piece, only about 300+ may survive their first encounter with the GA as well, reducing the number of old SD's, besides those 'thousands in the SDF's' [how many are how old?] to the level near an endangered species, before the GA really goes after any perceived threats among the SL members, so that rarity may make the old SD's even more valuable to those desperate to have one, then there are those collectors who have to have one that's rarely been used...

Given how obsolete those old SD's are, even a pair of the old SDP's ought to be more than enough with a pair of CLAC's and screen to easily handle most troublesome SDF's.

So all the hype about having to have a wall may be part of the changing paradigm in the face of the GA's easily created missile storms.

Given several hundred such pre-Apollo SDP's, the GA could then handle a few hundred systems simultaneously after eliminating the BF reserve while simultaneously keeping its core Apollo SDP's concentrated for any emergencies.

L


[quote="wastedfly"]Daf:

What is the deal with your proclivity for sending a singleton waller waltzing around the universe?

Wallers never watltz around in singletons. In fact, it is extraordinary for a single division to be by itself as was the case at Solon.

You build wallers, for well, a squadron level WALL with integrated offense/defense. For squashing HARD targets.

Not tip toeing through the tulips.

Got a flower problem? Send in the BC's.

A rodent problem? Send in the CA's.

A fly problem? Send in the CL's.[/quote]

I would forsee formation wall of battle tactics will become MORE pronounced in the future. Not less.

Why? Keyholes.

True, Graser fire wall of battle tactics went obsolescent about 10 years ago, but the wall's defensive integration purposes against missiles is still 100% viable.

Wall formation, pick your unit type, will force even ships with FTL Apollo birds to shove more offensive missiles into one or two narrow aspects. Concentrating the offensive missiles into "zones" also allows CM's to be concentrated into "zones".

I could see an "inner zone" where the CM's are completely autonomous, or effectively so due to short range intercepts. Is space a very big place? Sure, but when 10,000 missiles are entering a stand-off attack range of 30-50,000 km all at the same time, creating a semi autonomous CM sweeper algorithm to block/attack becomes fairly simplified.

As per SLN stuff, or even Cataphract style missiles, CA/BC/DN/SDP at this moment is really beside the fact. They all read the tags from the sollies wedgies just fine.

wastedfly wrote:Daf:

What is the deal with your proclivity for sending a singleton waller waltzing around the universe?

Wallers never watltz around in singletons. In fact, it is extraordinary for a single division to be by itself as was the case at Solon.

You build wallers, for well, a squadron level WALL with integrated offense/defense. For squashing HARD targets.

Not tip toeing through the tulips.

Got a flower problem? Send in the BC's.

A rodent problem? Send in the CA's.

A fly problem? Send in the CL's.

You're misinterpreting what I'm saying. When I say 'if a job requires a waller, send a waller', the most common job that would require a waller is to stand in the wall - though occasionally a single SD(P) or division will be detached, as we've seen in the past. Most of the time, however, you don't need a waller, either individually or as part of a division, squadron, task force or fleet. For all those jobs, you want battlecruisers, cruisers and destroyers. For the jobs that DO require wallers, you want the nastiest ones you can build. At the moment, that means SD(P)s, not some cut-down, cut-price attempt at an attritional unit.

Dafmeister wrote: At the moment, that means SD(P)s, not some cut-down, cut-price attempt at an attritional unit.

Sweet, then why is Manticore not shoving hyperdrives up their 16Mt forts rears instead? Who cares about acceleration in an MDM environment. Acceleration is inconsequential. Still obtain around 100g's.

SD is already an attrition unit compared to Forts.

Comes down to $$$/effective unit price tag.

If we assume that a Gryphon SD was balanced offensively/defensively a simple step in time displays current designs heavily favor offensive improvement capabilities while only modest corresponding correlating defensive capabilities. (Keyhole being the main contributor in the defensive additions)

Something has to give. Obtaining balance has been one of MWW's mantras for his universe.

Either a new SD class is created with massive amounts of extra armor+defensive systems(effectively a Lynx junction fort), or a new DN'P class is created that curbs offensive endurance, saving $$$/ship while increasing total defensive systems(CM tubes/PDLC) through the addition of more numerous hulls.

Something has to give.

Invictus can already run around with 2000 pods. Roughly 1400-1500 internally, and 600 externally. Old Medusa, now can routinely run around with 700+ internally and 600 externally. Where is the corresponding ability to launch and control a balanced number of defensive CM's, etc? Doesn't exist.

wastedfly wrote:Daf:

What is the deal with your proclivity for sending a singleton waller waltzing around the universe?

Wallers never watltz around in singletons. In fact, it is extraordinary for a single division to be by itself as was the case at Solon.

You build wallers, for well, a squadron level WALL with integrated offense/defense. For squashing HARD targets.

Not tip toeing through the tulips.

Got a flower problem? Send in the BC's.

A rodent problem? Send in the CA's.

A fly problem? Send in the CL's.

Then, of course, you have the Samothrace class, which is almost always deployed in single units. Like the one orbiting Flax. These SDs are C&C units.

JohnRoth wrote:Then, of course, you have the Samothrace class, which is almost always deployed in single units. Like the one orbiting Flax. These SDs are C&C units.

Do you base a new design on a rare odds and sods ship?

No.