Rule for a Prolong time or not?

presumably prolong hasn't been in effect very long, not long enough for anyone to be over 100 via prolong yet, Which was mentioned possibly in discussion of Ramajet's age? maybe I'm mistaken...

How do we know it only lasts 300 years? Can it mutate or vary per person etc... Could a Ramesses II live to be 500? Ramesses the II lived to his 90's. He had 96 sons and 60 daughters from two main wives and six other wives. On can only imagine if he lived in prime health for 270 years how many kids he would have.

Let alone Genghis Khan who over 45-50 years of rule managed to have more children than anyone ever. 800 years later and 30,000,000 men are of direct ancestral relation to Genghis Khan.

Lord Skimper wrote:presumably prolong hasn't been in effect very long, not long enough for anyone to be over 100 via prolong yet, Which was mentioned possibly in discussion of Ramajet's age? maybe I'm mistaken...

How do we know it only lasts 300 years? Can it mutate or vary per person etc... Could a Ramesses II live to be 500? Ramesses the II lived to his 90's. He had 96 sons and 60 daughters from two main wives and six other wives. On can only imagine if he lived in prime health for 270 years how many kids he would have.

Let alone Genghis Khan who over 45-50 years of rule managed to have more children than anyone ever. 800 years later and 30,000,000 men are of direct ancestral relation to Genghis Khan.

One, you do make a valid point that with only 100+ years of prolong, nobody really knows when the effects will end and people will start to age and die. I'm sure the estimated range is based on sound science, but like you say, there are always folks that are at the far end of the curve.

Second, you then spoil an excellent point with blather.
For Ramases 8 wives to have 156 children (not counting miscarriges and stillborn births), they would have to average 19-20 kids each. Not impossible, but improbable. If you include concubines and other dalliances available to Pharaohs, then that number might make sense.

And Khan's descendents? Let's say you have a wife and produce two sons, who then get married and have two sons each, whoom then marry and have...by my rough calculations, in 25 generations (or one generation about every 32 years for 800 years) you, Lord Skimper, will have 33,594,632 males that could trace their ancestery back to you.

So better get to it...

Why can't we assume that the Royal Family, at least, with its high percentage of tree cat adoptions won't take the same general rule as the treecats themselves? After all...those treecats may not have a Royal Family to rule them, but they HAVE had similar matriarchal "rulers" in their Senior Memory Singers. THEY seem to have worked out an acceptable solution....

And yeah, I know people aren't "the people," but there seems to be an awful lot of mental linkage between adoptees, so maybe a little learning-by-osmosis will prevail? Especially since the 'cats can talk to their counterparts.

I don't see much of a problem with this if you consider abdication. The length of reign would have to be longer in the Honorverse, but the Dutch monarchy has successfully been passed this way three times now since the 1948. It seems like a perfectly sensible way to go about things to me. The new monarch gets sworn in at a reasonable age and the old monarch can at least have a retirement spoiling the grandkids or something.

Did Tolkien ever stated how this was dealt with in the kings of Numenor? The early kings would have lived as long as somone with prolongand they ruled until death I think.

Franavu wrote:Did Tolkien ever stated how this was dealt with in the kings of Numenor? The early kings would have lived as long as somone with prolongand they ruled until death I think.

Yes, this is how Numenor functioned, more or less. The kings would wed late and rule until they felt their heirs were at 'the height of their days', at which point they would willingly lay down their lives and leave the kingship to their heirs. This lasted until they became corrupted by the fear of death; the first king to refuse to depart in his son's favor was Tar-Atanamir, the thirteenth king, more than two thousand years after the founding of Numenor.

Why yes, I do have my copies of LotR and the Silmarillion next to my computer, why do you ask?

MuonNeutrino wrote:Yes, this is how Numenor functioned, more or less. The kings would wed late and rule until they felt their heirs were at 'the height of their days', at which point they would willingly lay down their lives and leave the kingship to their heirs.

Well, I'm not sure 'laying down their lives' would work out in the Honorverse, but it is certainly one way to go about it. Although with wedding late there is that pesky problem of an assassin at the wrong time (maybe more in the Honorverse) and the siblings having to fight it out.

And when things went wrong with Numenor it certainly got dire, what with eventually sinking to the bottom of the sea and all. *Fishes out own copy of Silmarillion* Still they lasted another 12 kings after Tar-Atanamir, so they must have had something going.

In Tolkien the Elves were immortal didn't they let alone the black Maiar counter parts rule for very long times until removed by force and even ruling after that... Elvish kings or queens ruled for 1000's of years.

The problem with prolong is that people don't get old, they stop and stay at twenty five. At least they all look twenty five. We all think of the main characters being older than the new younger characters but like the movie 17 again they all feel young. No pain in the knees no arthritis no failing eye sight. No signs of ageing. Everyone feels 25. Plus beyond the magical youth they have the magical health. Sharp of mind sharp of body sharp of spirit. No retire because your getting old. You are twenty five. Nobody retires at twenty five because they feel so good sharp able and at their peak.

Also the prolong people have nor ever will know what it is to be old. Unlike 17 again, they will always have the twenty five year old brain body and mindset. And that whole puberty years are going to last for many more years. Puberty won't be 7 or so years but 20-35 years.

We think of Honor's parents being older because they have different generation of prolong and stop later on. But when everyone is twenty five you are twenty five. Your great grand father is twenty five and your great grand daughter is twenty five. You are going to be living together for a hundred years as twenty five year olds.

Then a horrible rapid death from aging will take over and everyone will be horrified. They will start to see there twenty five year old friends suddenly age quickly and die and treat it like a disease and try to stop it. New regen to reverse your clock back to twenty five actual rather than apparent and prolong becomes permalock twenty five.

Suddenly death loses its grip thankfully and one is able to continue with a whole new set of problems.

Now with Elizabeth 1\3. The royalty is pretty good rule for current group in power. Not if your a liberal or conservative but the current group. What happens when you are ruled by a King or Queen who is liberal socialist or conservative leaning. Will it be such a good thing then? Or will the king from the Houseman clan need be assassinated? Perhaps even by a former King or Queen? Politics screws everything up.

The Numenoran kings were the mortal descendants of Elros Half-Elven, Elrond's twin brother who chose mortality. The earlier kings lived 300-400 years in good health until they aged rapidly in their final years. They avoided the extremes of old age by letting themselves die when they felt it coming, this was a part of the gift of men (death) that was given to the descendents of Elros. This seems comparabable to the effects of prolong in the Honorverse and we were discussing how the Numenorans dealt with this and if they could do the same in the Honorverse.

I'm not sure if permanently 25 is how you can see it. Age is partly physical and partly experience and they seem to count experience more in the books. After all prolong also extends puberty, and they allow midshipmen and ensigns who are physically 13 or 14 to serve in the military. If you could go only on physical age with prolong, they would be child soldiers and also pretty much unfit to lead anything. I certainly would be unfit for any kind of responsibility when I was that physical age. But as they have 20 something years of experience they are capable of serving in the military. That seems to signify that experience counts more than just physical age.

What I'm trying to say is that their bodies might be 25, but that they still have the weight of memories and the maturity of someone much older. Though it would be interesting to see how brains which are pretty much meant for max. 100 years of experience and memories will deal with 300 or so years of them.

That terrified of death thing is also what eventually happened in Numenor, by the way. They didn't allow themselves to die when they felt age catching up and it ended after a dozen generations of that with them trying to invade the undying lands. They had Sauron whispering in their ears, but still. Anyway that caused the Valar to sink Numenor and killed pretty much everyone except for Elendil (Aragorn's ancestor) and nine ships of faithful.

It will be interesting to see how that goes in the Honorverse. Though I'm not sure it will be as much of a problem in Manticore as it would be for the Solarian League, seeing as Manticore has been pretty experienced with war and people dying for their Star Nation and they're at least not unfamiliar with the concept of death.

Tolkien Elves were also the next best thing to sterile. That or they really just didn't have any sort of sexual urges.

Also I am pretty sure Admiral Rajani was like 125ish when he put a pulsar in his mouth. He was also one of the first prolong recipients so he would be at the high end of the age thing.

Its a good point though, will the Monarchs such as Elizabeth or Grayson's Bernard when he ascends to the throne, rule for life? Or will they get worn out of the whole thing after a century or so and go into retirement and let their kids have a crack at things?

I am pretty positive Manticore and Grayson don't have any sort of laws requiring the ruler to step down after a period of time. Nor do I ever see them adopting said rules, but I could see it becoming an un-official tradition to step down after a century or so if things are quite and peaceful.

That being said I don't actually expect to see it becoming relevant in the story, the plot will probably not extend out that far.

Direwolf18 wrote:Its a good point though, will the Monarchs such as Elizabeth or Grayson's Bernard when he ascends to the throne, rule for life? Or will they get worn out of the whole thing after a century or so and go into retirement and let their kids have a crack at things?

I am pretty positive Manticore and Grayson don't have any sort of laws requiring the ruler to step down after a period of time. Nor do I ever see them adopting said rules, but I could see it becoming an un-official tradition to step down after a century or so if things are quite and peaceful.

Certainly RFC has said that many people with prolong do get tired or their first career and may temporarily retire before taking up some different line of work; and do this a few times over their lifespan.


I wouldn't be surprised if that applied to Monarchs as well. And as long as you've got a well trained and competent heir it probably makes sense, for both, of you for the reigning monarch to step down after a while.

Not something likely to be codified into law, but more of a pattern or a custom. (Like the custom George Washington started of US presidents not trying for a 3rd term. That lasted around 140 years as "just" a custom)