Topic Actions

Topic Search

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 58 guests

longer ships...

Join us in talking discussing all things Honor, including (but not limited to) tactics, favorite characters, and book discussions.
longer ships...
Post by Lord Skimper   » Mon Sep 15, 2014 3:27 am

Lord Skimper
Vice Admiral

Posts: 1736
Joined: Wed Aug 07, 2013 12:49 am
Location: Calgary, Nova, Gryphon.

If one could make ships longer, without making them taller or wider, one should be able to solve all sorts of problems.

Take the Nike BCL. If it was made longer in the middle section only, add 33% to the total length but double its broad side and PD & CM's and grasers. One would have a ship that displaces only 3.3 mtons but doubles its fire power. Like wise a BC(P) would at twice as long bringing the total tonage to 3.5 mtons but would have for an Agamemnon crew a pod capacity approaching that of an Invictus. Make it twice as long again 7 mtons but with a pod capacity of 2.5 times that of an Invictus. And a smaller crew.

Assumes a pod capacity is half the total length of the Agamemnon.

The broadside area of the Nike is 1/3rd.

Make the Nike Twice as long and for 5 mtons you get 100 missile tubes per broadside, and four keyhole I platforms per side. 36 grasers per broadside and SD armouring. Make it 3 times as long 7.5 mtons you raise that to 175 missile tubes per broadside, 63 grasers, 200+ PD and 200+ CM and room for 7 Keyhole 1 per broadside. The hammerheads remain the same everything the same just longer.

Offbore that could be 350 missiles stack it to 700 if you like and that is one fomidible SD. 10-20 times the throw weight of anyone's normal SD for a similar weight and smaller crew. With a defensive capability 2.5-3 that of a SD(P) and offensive salvo numbers approaching that of full SD(P) without the pod limitations. Add in 120-240 missiles per tube and you have 3000-6000 mk16 pod capacity. At a much lower price.

50 of these long Nike and your salvo levels are stacked at 35,000 mk16 missiles.

Now one will assume the argument is that the ratio of the impeller rings can't be that far apart. That shouldn't be a problem, just mount the additional broadsides further out where the hammerheads would be. Might look funny but who cares about that?
________________________________________
Just don't ask what is in the protein bars.
Top
Re: longer ships...
Post by The E   » Mon Sep 15, 2014 4:54 am

The E
Admiral

Posts: 2704
Joined: Tue May 07, 2013 1:28 pm
Location: Meerbusch, Germany

You are, once again, not considering that scaling usually does not work out that way. All the extra systems draw more power, requiring a redesigned power system. The extra mass and volume requires a redesigned compensator, impeller system and hyperdrive. All the extra systems require additional manpower to maintain and use. In order to support all that mass, structural members will have to be strengthened and redesigned.

Which, in a nutshell, means that the massive gains you're hoping for just aren't going to be there.

Scaling up a battlecruiser to SD size gives you .... a relatively marginal SD, with none of the passive survivability features of a proper SD. Basically, if you're already using 7Mt of material for shipbuilding, you might as well add another million and build an Invictus.

Also?
The hammerheads remain the same everything the same just longer.

If you elongate something, it doesn't "remain the same".
Top
Re: longer ships...
Post by vovchara   » Mon Sep 15, 2014 9:22 am

vovchara
Lieutenant (Junior Grade)

Posts: 35
Joined: Tue Apr 22, 2014 5:15 am
Location: Germany

Here is a good explanation, why size matters: http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Science/Size.html
Top
Re: longer ships...
Post by Thunder Child Actual   » Mon Sep 15, 2014 9:24 am

Thunder Child Actual
Lieutenant (Senior Grade)

Posts: 53
Joined: Wed Apr 03, 2013 8:54 pm

I thought that we had come to an agreement that it was best to not reply to Lord Skimper’s ideas on new ship designs/tactics/technology upgrades. When you have a person such as Lord Skimper who will argue with the designer of the universe in question he is not going to listen to anyone else either.

So to critique his designs/ideas is a waste of time. No matter how many people tell him he is wrong, he will insist that it can be done that way. At best David Weber will shut down the tread quickly before many people waste time arguing with him on the merits and practicality of his idea. That wastes some of David’s time that he could be writing, but saves everyone else the heartache and time they would spend posting on the idea.
Top
Re: longer ships...
Post by Jonathan_S   » Mon Sep 15, 2014 10:44 am

Jonathan_S
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 8800
Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2011 2:01 pm
Location: Virginia, USA

Lord Skimper wrote:If one could make ships longer, without making them taller or wider, one should be able to solve all sorts of problems.
As far as I know the compensator effectiveness is tied to shape, not just raw volume.

My understanding is that if you make a ship that's 35% longer its going to accelerate like a much more massive ship (one of normal shape of that length). In other words skinnier ships don't make much sense because you already paid virtually the entire acceleration penalty for a full diameter ship that length; but then failed to use most of the volume you paid for.
Top
Re: longer ships...
Post by Theemile   » Mon Sep 15, 2014 11:51 am

Theemile
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 5243
Joined: Sat Feb 27, 2010 5:50 pm
Location: All over the Place - Now Serving Dublin, OH

Jonathan_S wrote:
Lord Skimper wrote:If one could make ships longer, without making them taller or wider, one should be able to solve all sorts of problems.
As far as I know the compensator effectiveness is tied to shape, not just raw volume.

My understanding is that if you make a ship that's 35% longer its going to accelerate like a much more massive ship (one of normal shape of that length). In other words skinnier ships don't make much sense because you already paid virtually the entire acceleration penalty for a full diameter ship that length; but then failed to use most of the volume you paid for.


The same reason why an empty freightor isn't any faster then a full freighter.

However.....

SNERK>>>>>> A Call to Arms snerk....

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

0

Snerking...

It is shown in the new Travis long book that the shape of the compensator field is one of many localized maxima for the field equations, and you CAN change the shape of the field and get different effects. A Havenite CA is built with a habitat section sticking out from the hull taking advantage of a newly modeled compensator field shape to give some extra room and a few extra gs of accel. But this was the time prior to the "modern" grav plate where ships routinely had habitat spin sections which balloned out from the center of the ship, not the modern, streamlined forms.

So you can build different compensated field shapes, but those are LESS efficient than the absolute maximum - some shapes are a localized maxima, that give an advantage over the shapes near it, but are not as efficient of the absolute maximized field shape.

The current dimensions of the field are probably close to the absolute Maxima of the field. Making it more slender probably has delatarious or no effect to accel.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
Top
Re: longer ships...
Post by Vince   » Mon Sep 15, 2014 1:24 pm

Vince
Vice Admiral

Posts: 1574
Joined: Fri Apr 09, 2010 11:43 pm

vovchara wrote:Here is a good explanation, why size matters: http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Science/Size.html

That is a really, really informative link. (Humorous too.)
-------------------------------------------------------------
History does not repeat itself so much as it echoes.
Top
Re: longer ships...
Post by Lord Skimper   » Wed Sep 17, 2014 10:00 am

Lord Skimper
Vice Admiral

Posts: 1736
Joined: Wed Aug 07, 2013 12:49 am
Location: Calgary, Nova, Gryphon.

Given that the compensator acts as a structural integrity field effectively reducing all stresses to zero. The mass and integrity is rendered null.

The size of the rings which generate the compensator field dynamics could be made larger. Perhaps they could fold out for hyperspace travel. Using a second set of beta squared nodes which don't require the geometry of standard and hypernodes. At 33% longer than a normal Nike, this would give it the similar to Invictus hyper performance.

If the compensator isn't tied into the impellor rings then customising it to the longer shape or using more than one overlapping should be OK.

I've kept the mass less than the max presented by the Invictus for the need to keep compensation under an 8mton limit.

If the length still presents a problem there is always the option of just scaling up the Agamemnon to Invictus sizes. The Agamemnon is about 4.85 times smaller than the Invictus. Making an Agamemnon 4.85 times larger, with 4.85 times as much Agamemnon armour etc.... The result is an Invictus sized SD(P) with 1700+ pods. Use an Invictus Keyhole and better armour pattern. You just added 70% to your pod load and cut the crew size in half.
________________________________________
Just don't ask what is in the protein bars.
Top
Re: longer ships...
Post by MuonNeutrino   » Wed Sep 17, 2014 11:50 am

MuonNeutrino
Commander

Posts: 167
Joined: Tue Aug 06, 2013 12:40 pm

Lord Skimper wrote:stuff

"It is not only not right, it is not even wrong."
_______________________________________________________
MuonNeutrino
Astronomer, teacher, gamer, and procrastinator extraordinaire
Top
Re: longer ships...
Post by Lord Skimper   » Sat Sep 20, 2014 10:31 am

Lord Skimper
Vice Admiral

Posts: 1736
Joined: Wed Aug 07, 2013 12:49 am
Location: Calgary, Nova, Gryphon.

MuonNeutrino wrote:
Lord Skimper wrote:stuff

"It is not only not right, it is not even wrong."



Was that a compliment? :)
________________________________________
Just don't ask what is in the protein bars.
Top

Return to Honorverse