Henke — to do, or not to do.

bhasseler wrote:But it's not. The universal signal for starship surrender in the Honorverse is deliberately striking the wedge. That was not done.

I think it's instructive that Theisman basically takes Henke's side on this.

Indeed so, plus as has probably been mentioned before, the Havenite commander made the error of not formally calling for the surrender of the Ajax. Had he done so, either Mike would have had to do so (under the terms he so dictated) or refused to do so, in which case he would have known he was dealing with a still-hostile force.

The Havenites saw the escape pods and jumped to a conclusion--it happened to be the one Mike wanted, but without a formal demand for surrender the RH Admiral had no reason to let down his guard--a fact I am sure Tom THeisman reminded him of.

War was, is and probably will be in the future a nasty business...William T. Sherman (the Civil War general) had the right of it (War is Hell). It is also notable that the man who offered surrendered Southerners the best terms at the end of the war and did his best to repair the damages between the states was that same Tecumseh Sherman.

Michelle Henke really had only two choices, to fight and then self destruct or to scuttle her ship without fighting. the third option, surrender the ship intact was not really viable and would have been a cowardly act amounting to treason.

The peep squadron commander, once he entered missile range and the Manties had not surrendered, should have expected that the Manties would fight. The fact that the peeps did not anticipate the attack Michelle used is their fault, not hers. Michelle used her missiles in the most effective way possible, which was HER DUTY once she had decided to fight. A commander should use the ordinance at their disposal to inflict the maximum enemy casualties, or at least do enough damage that the enemy is forced to surrender. It is not like Michelle had broadcast her surrender, or even struck her wedge then launched her surprise attack, that would have been immoral and had consequences in future engagements.

The peep commander interpreted the launching of some life pods as a sign that the Manties were going to surrender. The correct interpretation would have been that the Manties were evacuating all non essential personnel prior to engaging in a hopeless battle. The peep commander might have wondered why nothing was leaving the boat bay if the Manties were completely abandoning ship or why they had not communicated their intent to surrender or struck their wedge. The fact that the peep commander only anticipated a standard missile duel and was completely unprepared for the unorthodox attack Michelle used is on him. Until the Manties had formally indicated they would surrender either by sending a com message or striking their wedge, the battle was still on and the peep commander should have known they were still in a combat condition, not a surrender negotiation.

Michelle Henke really had only two choices, to fight and then self destruct or to scuttle her ship without fighting. the third option, surrender the ship intact was not really viable and would have been a cowardly act amounting to treason.

Which is why McKeon's Prince Adrian fought to the death at Adler and resulted in no survivors. Oh, wait...

It is customary to let the surrendered party scrub whatever secure systems they can prior to the victor taking possession of the ship. McKeon did it with Prince Adrian, and I see no reason why Mike Henke would not be extended the same courtesy at Solon. And as Honor points out to Jaruwalski in AoV, it is the officer's first duty to his or her people.

Duckk wrote:

Michelle Henke really had only two choices, to fight and then self destruct or to scuttle her ship without fighting. the third option, surrender the ship intact was not really viable and would have been a cowardly act amounting to treason.

Which is why McKeon's Prince Adrian fought to the death at Adler and resulted in no survivors. Oh, wait...

It is customary to let the surrendered party scrub whatever secure systems they can prior to the victor taking possession of the ship. McKeon did it with Prince Adrian, and I see no reason why Mike Henke would not be extended the same courtesy at Solon. And as Honor points out to Jaruwalski in AoV, it is the officer's first duty to his or her people.

True, but Henke was in a position where she didn't want the Peeps to get their hands on the hardware; it wasn't just an information or software question.

Same reason why Terekhov fought to the death against the Peeps despite knowing the war was over - he had to keep the hardware out of their hands.

Duckk wrote:Which is why McKeon's Prince Adrian fought to the death at Adler and resulted in no survivors. Oh, wait...

Ajax couldn't "scrub" its launch rails, magazine organization, Mk16 missiles, etc. Prince Adrian only had critical secrets inside its computers Ajax WAS the critical secrets.

Michelle couldn't "scrub" the critical secrets without scuttling.

Crown Loyalist wrote:True, but Henke was in a position where she didn't want the Peeps to get their hands on the hardware; it wasn't just an information or software question.

Same reason why Terekhov fought to the death against the Peeps despite knowing the war was over - he had to keep the hardware out of their hands.

So? Prince Adrian had the latest in compensator tech (that's where the Peeps got their first good look at Grayson-type compensators), plus god knows what in EW tech, yet they still surrendered. If the situation is so obviously hopeless that there is no point in continuing to fight - and don't get me wrong, all alternatives must be exhausted - then it's neither cowardice nor treason to surrender honorably. You didn't see Honor or McKeon being brought up on charges when they got back to the Alliance, did you?

Duckk is right--Ajax could have surrendered without dishonor. The text explicitly says so. The reason she didn't is due to a specific and carefully thought-out decision.

Once that decision was made, it was merely a question of whether or not to strike at the Havenites before scuttling/destruction.

I'm not positive that Honor would have made the same decision, but I think she might have. I definitely think she would not consider it wrong for Henke to have made the decision to launch the missile pod ambush. As others have stated, the Ajax was not asked to surrender and gave no indication that it was going to surrender. The accepted method of announcing surrender in the Honorverse is to send a message of surrender, or to drop the wedge if that is not possible or practical. Launching life pods is not an announcement of surrender.

Weird Harold wrote:Ajax couldn't "scrub" its launch rails, magazine organization, Mk16 missiles, etc. Prince Adrian only had critical secrets inside its computers Ajax WAS the critical secrets.

Michelle couldn't "scrub" the critical secrets without scuttling.

As mentioned in my previous post, Prince Adrian had the improved compensator and EW assets, which fell into Peep hands. Plus the security protocols don't just cover data in the hardware, but chunks of the hardware itself. David has mentioned several times that if the security trips, it turns the molecular circuitry into a pretty paperweight.

cthia wrote:
I recall your attention to exhibit-A, when Eighth Fleet was operating in the Peeps rear areas. Honor consistently gave extra time to evacuate. And she insisted on proper treatment of POW's, but not before insisting that every life-pod be collected. There was definite textev, featuring a conversation in Haven's - War room (IIRC) of it's top brass (forget who) that Harrington may be sending the message that she would be open to proper treatment of prisoners as well as a certain morality if Haven would reciprocate. It was an almost verbatim "I think Harrington may also be sending the message that she'd be willing to exercise restraint if we were." I distinctly remember that Peep conversation. And IIRC, it was echoed in Honor's thoughts. If you do not remember that passage, I shall divert energies and task myself to bring it to bear, or perhaps any of our more studious, surprisingly efficient tac witches. Honor worked very hard to restore a sense of morality!

However, I can't remember if it was during the time of StateSec or no.

Cthia, the quote you're looking for is from AAC and it's Pritchart's government doing the talking.

"But Harrington didn't have to let Milligan stand down his forces. And they would have been justified, under accepted interstellar law, in simply giving us 'a reasonable time' to evacuate, which would have been a lot shorter than the time they actually gave us." She shook her head. "No, I think part of it was the Manties' way—or, at least, Harrington's way—of telling us that if we show restraint—whenever we can, at least—they'll do the same."

They do talk a bit about Honor's reputation regarding POWs but I believe that regardless of anything Honor did in the previous war, the Pritchart Administration was already inclined to treat POWs better than the Peeps ever did.

It seems like everyone's talking about Henke's 3 options (surrender, scuttle now, fight and scuttle later).

Surrender wasn't an option in Henke's opinion, because Ajax was brand new; unlike Prince Adrian, which was a decades-old ship that had some (not all) of the tech upgrades, Ajax was brand-spanking new, with every bell and whistle. Adrian had been able to get rid of her most valuable electronics (the recon platforms) by launching them with orders to self-destruct. Ajax was made of most-valuable materials.

As for scuttling, without evacuating the crew, I don't think anyone saw that as an option. You don't kill your own people. Even if you have to just wait for the enemy to do it or you, you still give them that chance. Even on a destroyed ship, there are normally survivors (unless the fusion plant goes up). Give your crew that chance, at least.

But I always saw this as Option #4: Take as many of them with us as possible.

Until the boat bay was cleared, allowing Ajax to continue evacuating at the last minute, Henke's plan was to strike as heavy a blow as possible.

I haven't read the passage in a while, but IIRC, Henke had guessed that since the Havenites hadn't started shooting as soon as they had her within range, they were planning to close to just outside Ajax's maximum range, and then demand her surrender. If she accepted, so much the better. If she didn't, they'd have better locks for when they did start shooting.

Henke, however, realized that she could actually get a shot off, with her whole magazine in one shot. She took that chance, so that even if they couldn't evac, they'd take a lot of the enemy with them.

As it happened, they were able to evacuate at the last minute, but that made it appear they'd been waiting to sucker the Havenites in. Henke realized this, and tried to do something about it, but was too late. There was nothing dishonorable or nasty about how it happened, just MWW's sense of timing and drama.

P.S. I just went back and peeked at the passage, and Henke's ops officer actually said he wished they could take some with them, which is what got Mike thinking about the pod drop.