(SPOILERS) Is Nynian to be trusted?

Hi PeterZ,

Kudos for your perception or suspicion.

The Desolation Mountains [and why were they named the Desolation Mountains before the WotF, or since the creation? Could it be another trick of Shan-wei?] seems a bit far to send Nynian from the KotTL, and I suspect any holdout there was easily destroyed by the Rakurai, even if they had to hit the same target twice, which I doubt since the nominal demons didn't know ahead of time and didn't have time to build anything that could resist the Rakurai etc.

She already knows or suspects the lies behind the Holy Writ's version of creation, so she doesn't respect Langhorne and Bedard et. al. all that much, and thanks to Seijin Khody sympathizes with the losers, since her sisterhood was the last victim of the WotF.

She didn't start off thinking that, she learned or was lead to understand that by the sisterhood so the sisterhood understands that very well.

So I think their reception of Merlin will be quite friendly, even ecstatic when he or Nimue [in her first character role] can read the journal, provide and explain the translating materials, and a helpful comm to link with OWL (watched by SNARC sensors, it won't ever be caught by the inquisition etc) but since that means the successful vetting I expect, it might be quite an expansion of the inner circle with the sensors listening and set to respond when they ask the possibly empty room, or some special place, a question; "OWL or Nahrmahn, what does -x- mean?" to explain things like vocabulary, syntax etc.

Of course that only because the sensors know there is no one not cleared to hear them.

I think OWL would enjoy having a larger more diverse audience, and so would Nahrmahn, while Sharleyan, Olivia and the Charis Sisterhood would appreciate having someone else to talk to, and it could easily end the male domination of the inner circle that some of us have complained about.

L

PeterZ wrote:All right Don, text has begun to support your leap of faith.

I had posited a several of years ago that whatever the organization Nynian belonged to resided in the Desolation Mountains. RFC immediately responded with a pithy quip about lack of trust. Now we find that the last stronghold of the Fallen was in the Desolation mountains. I am sure all sorts Safehold folklore tell why they chose that spot. I also suspect that enough truth survived so that a disillusioned group would follow that practice. I believe the SSoSK (Secret Sisterhood of Saint Khody) located in a location comparable to Armeggedon Reef in the monds of Safeholdians, ......(cue foreboding music)...The Desolation Mountains!

Yes, I say trust her with Father Paityr and the Stone of Schueler/verifier present when Merlin sopills the beans. Having Father Paityr play his recording of his ancestor will only strengthen the message. Also, if she doesn't believe or refuses to accept the Charisian conclusions powerfully enough to resist, the verifier is the only hope of recognizing the situation. Tell her and a small number of of people she chooses. Also have both Nimue and Merlin present. Two seijins might just come in handy, especially if Nynian only expects one.

lyonheart wrote:Hi PeterZ,

Kudos for your perception or suspicion.

The Desolation Mountains [and why were they named the Desolation Mountains before the WotF, or since the creation? Could it be another trick of Shan-wei?] s

How do you know that they were named that before the WotF? Armageddon Reef wasn't always named Armageddon Reef after all.

The name could very well have been changed to Desolation Mountains after the WotF, especially if as speculated the Rakurai was used multiple times during that period. After all, if the Desolation Mountains was the stronghold of the Fallen, why WOULDN'T Chihiro or whoever use the Rakurai on them? Not to mention the possible profligate use of Federation tech weaponry on both sides that could turn lush terrain into a moonscape.

Well, Lyonheart, any targeting system might find the iron rich mountains difficult to accurately get detailed readings. That would be true for high tech facilities. Low tech structures would be much more difficult to get detailed sensor readings.

Nynian was an embarrassment. How far does a Grand Vicar's bastard daughter have to be out of sight to be out of mind? Perhaps as far as the Desolation Mountains or near enough anyway. The Tomb of Saint Khody might well be at that location along with the true headquarters. The convent Nynian wad sent to might simply have been the nearest public hub of the SSK.

Seems to me that there are really two questions here. Can Nynian be trusted and can the Sisterhood be trusted? At this point we know little about the SSK other than that it is extensive, even having spies in Charis and the Temple itself and has teams of highly skilled operatives capable of carrying out assassinations of well protected vicars.

Merlin and the inner circle certainly don't want the SSK as an enemy. When Nynian said that a lack of trust could end very badly for one of us she was just stating the obvious, not making a threat. The SSK has its own secrets and has kept them for centuries, including its very existence. In sharing what she already has with Merlin, Nynian has taken a great risk and has shown a great deal of trust in Merlin. While Nynian may not be capable of taking out Merlin, the sisterhood could take out Caleb, Stohner, Charleen, Staynair etc. if things go very badly and the alliance falls apart, either before or after the COGA is taken down

In sharing some of the secrets of the SSK with Merlin, Nynian or Nynian and the Sisterhood have opened negotiations for a close alliance with Merlin and his group. In observing Merlin, Nynian must have noticed Merlin's connections and deduced that there is some inner circle within the political and military alliance against the Church of Clyntahn. Nynian may not be completely convinced that the Charisian empire and its spiritual allies are entirely good but she is clearly open minded about that and she knows for sure that the Church of Clyntahn is almost entirely evil. Nynian and the SSK or at least the inner circle of the SSK know about St Kohdy's doubts that Shan-Wei and all those that fought with her were actually evil so they are much more ready to accept the truth than most that have been brought into Merlin's inner circle.

After all that has been revealed in these snippets, I think it is critical that at least Nynian be brought into the inner circle immediately. How many members of the sisterhood if any should also be part of the inner circle is another question. Probably, at least the high leadership of the SSK should be as aware of the truth as the leaders of the brotherhood of St. Zherneau and the brotherhood and sisterhood are a natural alliance with both sharing each other's knowledge.

Sharp Claw wrote:Seems to me that there are really two questions here. Can Nynian be trusted and can the Sisterhood be trusted? At this point we know little about the SSK other than that it is extensive, even having spies in Charis and the Temple itself and has teams of highly skilled operatives capable of carrying out assassinations of well protected vicars.

Merlin and the inner circle certainly don't want the SSK as an enemy. When Nynian said that a lack of trust could end very badly for one of us she was just stating the obvious, not making a threat. The SSK has its own secrets and has kept them for centuries, including its very existence. In sharing what she already has with Merlin, Nynian has taken a great risk and has shown a great deal of trust in Merlin. While Nynian may not be capable of taking out Merlin, the sisterhood could take out Caleb, Stohner, Charleen, Staynair etc. if things go very badly and the alliance falls apart, either before or after the COGA is taken down

In sharing some of the secrets of the SSK with Merlin, Nynian or Nynian and the Sisterhood have opened negotiations for a close alliance with Merlin and his group. In observing Merlin, Nynian must have noticed Merlin's connections and deduced that there is some inner circle within the political and military alliance against the Church of Clyntahn. Nynian may not be completely convinced that the Charisian empire and its spiritual allies are entirely good but she is clearly open minded about that and she knows for sure that the Church of Clyntahn is almost entirely evil. Nynian and the SSK or at least the inner circle of the SSK know about St Kohdy's doubts that Shan-Wei and all those that fought with her were actually evil so they are much more ready to accept the truth than most that have been brought into Merlin's inner circle.

After all that has been revealed in these snippets, I think it is critical that at least Nynian be brought into the inner circle immediately. How many members of the sisterhood if any should also be part of the inner circle is another question. Probably, at least the high leadership of the SSK should be as aware of the truth as the leaders of the brotherhood of St. Zherneau and the brotherhood and sisterhood are a natural alliance with both sharing each other's knowledge.

I agree that Nynian's status needs to be dealt with as soon as possible by the inner circle. However her story needs corraboration. Merlin needs to meet the sisters and see the journal in a manner not different than what happened when Archbishop Mikael introduced him to the Brethren of St Zherneau. Although my impulse is to trust Nynian, the stakes are simply too high for her remarkable story to be accepted on her word alone.

I agree that Nynian probably deduced the existence of the inner circle. However, iirc, the only member of the inner circle apart from Merlin that she has actually encountered is Cayleb. Given the way Cayleb and Merlin have worked together, I'm sure that she would deduce that Cayleb would be partially in the know.

Don

Corroborating Nynian's story is less important than verifying what Nynian believes. Merlin's access to the SSK historic documents might help him and the Inner Circle deduce what The Return is, but not really help recognize the true risks of attacking the Temple. The SSK might have institutional knowledge that would help get a tac team into the Temple and avoid triggering the OBS.

Bottom line is that so long as Merlin uses the Verifier, he can share information with Nynian and some select sisters. They have to recognize that if they tell other sisters that aren't likely to respond well, those sisters will suffer accidents. Exploding SNARCS would be used if need be. Nynian wouldn't have engaged Merlin in this discussion unless she had a solution to that risk. Not the risk of exploding SNARCS, but of poor reaction to difficult revelations.

Once Nynian has revealed her beliefs and had Merlin reveal his past under the Verifier or Stone of Scheuler, those two can work out the remaining tactics.

n7axw wrote:I agree that Nynian probably deduced the existence of the inner circle. However, iirc, the only member of the inner circle apart from Merlin that she has actually encountered is Cayleb. Given the way Cayleb and Merlin have worked together, I'm sure that she would deduce that Cayleb would be partially in the know.

Don

She doesn't need to deduce anything. A prior snippet already said that Merlin had told her that he needed to consult with Cayleb before he could give an answer to her request.

So Merlin all but told Nynian that Cayleb in in the know.

Hi PeterZ,

To me, the inference from BHD was the convent wasn't far or Adorai probably would have mentioned it when revealing Nynian to Maikel.

Regarding the verifier, might OWL have copied the verifier by now, so Paityr doesn't have to make the sudden trip?

It's possible Nynian already knows about the verifier, though if his brother only got around to asking about it 12 years after Paityr's father gave it to him, probably not.

It's an interesting tactic to develop mutual trust, but I'm not sure RFC is going to do it that way.

L

PeterZ wrote:Corroborating Nynian's story is less important than verifying what Nynian believes. Merlin's access to the SSK historic documents might help him and the Inner Circle deduce what The Return is, but not really help recognize the true risks of attacking the Temple. The SSK might have institutional knowledge that would help get a tac team into the Temple and avoid triggering the OBS.

Bottom line is that so long as Merlin uses the Verifier, he can share information with Nynian and some select sisters. They have to recognize that if they tell other sisters that aren't likely to respond well, those sisters will suffer accidents. Exploding SNARCS would be used if need be. Nynian wouldn't have engaged Merlin in this discussion unless she had a solution to that risk. Not the risk of exploding SNARCS, but of poor reaction to difficult revelations.

Once Nynian has revealed her beliefs and had Merlin reveal his past under the Verifier or Stone of Scheuler, those two can work out the remaining tactics.

And Nynian will trust a device Merlin says is the long lost Wylsynn Verifier because...? Sure it will flag up her lies. How can she know it will flag up all of Merlin's?

At least giving her a Spanish dictionary and grammar before he ever sees the journal has the merit that she will reasonably quickly be able to have some kind of check on his translation. Far from perfect, but enough to see he's not just making it all up as he goes along.

lyonheart wrote:Hi PeterZ,

Regarding the verifier, might OWL have copied the verifier by now, so Paityr doesn't have to make the sudden trip?

I was Under the impression that the verifier (and the rest of the system projecting Schueler's 3D image) was now into Nimue's bat cave. I may be wrong, of course, but since it's the most secure place the inner circle have (at least again anything the Church might use), that's definitely were I would put it...

And even if Paityr still has it, a remote could pick it up and send it to siddarmark, no need for Paityr himself to come to the republic...