What about DN(P)s for the GA?

I just reread AaC and during the discussion in chapter 7, Grantville asked then if it wouldn't be better to build DN(P)s. Hamish denied that - mostly because of the necessary development time; after all, the RMN then didn't had a DN(P) design available at all.

In the Honorverse-Now, they still don't have that design - but (because of Oyster-Bay) they don't have yards in the Manticore-systems to build new ships, too, and they have the development people at Gryphon to think about new things - like .. oh, new ship classes, let's say.

So would it make sense for Manticore or the GA as a whole to let them design a DN(P) now, because they could be build faster after the new yards go into service? Or should the GA continue to build only SD(P)s as Ships of the Wall?

You don't have a design team. Everyone who can do that is busy doing work on designing the new space station, training people, supervising construction, or refining the designs they have already.

All the other people who did the design work on the big platforms are dead, as are most of the space construction people. So guess who gets to do this? About the only people who don't have work to do are the people who did acceptance testing on new ships and weapon systems, but I'm sure they have found new roles for them.

kzt wrote:You don't have a design team. Everyone who can do that is busy doing work on designing the new space station, training people, supervising construction, or refining the designs they have already.

Grayson Office of Shipbuilding maybe? Do we know if their design people were based space-side or ground side? I don't recall it being mentioned.

kzt wrote:You don't have a design team. Everyone who can do that is busy doing work on designing the new space station, training people, supervising construction, or refining the designs they have already.

All the other people who did the design work on the big platforms are dead, as are most of the space construction people. So guess who gets to do this? About the only people who don't have work to do are the people who did acceptance testing on new ships and weapon systems, but I'm sure they have found new roles for them.

As far as I know, the new yards are already under construction (If I remember correctly I read something to that effect in ART) - and somehow I doubt that you need as much people to overview the actual building process as you need to develop a new design in the first place. So at least some of the people who did designing the new yards should be able to do other things now ...

Eagleeye wrote:

kzt wrote:You don't have a design team. Everyone who can do that is busy doing work on designing the new space station, training people, supervising construction, or refining the designs they have already.

All the other people who did the design work on the big platforms are dead, as are most of the space construction people. So guess who gets to do this? About the only people who don't have work to do are the people who did acceptance testing on new ships and weapon systems, but I'm sure they have found new roles for them.

As far as I know, the new yards are already under construction (If I remember correctly I read something to that effect in ART) - and somehow I doubt that you need as much people to overview the actual building process as you need to develop a new design in the first place. So at least some of the people who did designing the new yards should be able to do other things now ...

you make an assumption, you can't prove nor disprove. Why not to stick with simple logic: There is a lot to do and not enough resources, why spend some of it on something with temporal and unquantifiable payoff?

My reading of naval history seems to show a technological trend for larger and more powerful units to be developed, with the 1920s treaties the only real (and temporary) exception. That is presumably because larger units are not only more powerful but also more survivable.

Smaller units might give somewhat greater flexibility but the cost of a DN is a significant fraction of that of a SD (80%?)so I would expect the larger vessels to be ordered especially since they are known technology.

As I recall the Manty DNs from the early stages of the Haven wars were an economy measure. I can't see the current crop of GA commanders willingly accepting second rate ships.

The only real advantage of building a DN(P) is that it can be built faster than an SD(P). However, the time saving won't be huge, 2-3 months at most, and you're getting a significantly inferior ship at the end of it. Given that, between the RMN, GSN and RHN, the GA isn't short of wallers at the moment, it makes more sense to build the more capable design.

Eagleeye wrote:I just reread AaC and during the discussion in chapter 7, Grantville asked then if it wouldn't be better to build DN(P)s. Hamish denied that - mostly because of the necessary development time; after all, the RMN then didn't had a DN(P) design available at all.

In the Honorverse-Now, they still don't have that design - but (because of Oyster-Bay) they don't have yards in the Manticore-systems to build new ships, too, and they have the development people at Gryphon to think about new things - like .. oh, new ship classes, let's say.

So would it make sense for Manticore or the GA as a whole to let them design a DN(P) now, because they could be build faster after the new yards go into service? Or should the GA continue to build only SD(P)s as Ships of the Wall?

I'd say they still wouldn't want then, but now for a different reason.

The GA has pretty much a monopoly on podlayers, and has hundreds of SD(P)s already. More than enough to crush any short term enemy. So IMO they don't need to crank out just raw numbers of podlayers; which is largely what the slightly faster build time of DN(P)s allows.

But what they don't have as widely deployed is Apollo (8th fleet and the python lump) and the latest defensive capabilities (4th gen podnaught designs - none in service) to let their ships hope to stand up to their own FTL firepower. Even if they have a DN(P) design drawn up by the time Manitcore and Grayson get their own internal shipyards back on line then smaller size means that it's inherently less surivavable. You've got less room, can carry less armor, and can't fit as many decoys and defensive systems.


I suspect once those shipyards are back online the next wallers they roll out will be the biggest, toughest, more survivable Apollo capable 4th gen SD(P)s that anyone can design.

Eagleeye wrote:I just reread AaC and during the discussion in chapter 7, Grantville asked then if it wouldn't be better to build DN(P)s. Hamish denied that - mostly because of the necessary development time; after all, the RMN then didn't had a DN(P) design available at all.

In the Honorverse-Now, they still don't have that design - but (because of Oyster-Bay) they don't have yards in the Manticore-systems to build new ships, too, and they have the development people at Gryphon to think about new things - like .. oh, new ship classes, let's say.

So would it make sense for Manticore or the GA as a whole to let them design a DN(P) now, because they could be build faster after the new yards go into service? Or should the GA continue to build only SD(P)s as Ships of the Wall?

No DNs. With the improved compensators, most likely the development will be in the opposite direction, BIGGER ships instead of smaller.

DNs are simply not worth the effort, they are not so much easier/faster to build that it makes up for their lower combat power per cost unit.

There was something about this in the pearls:

http://infodump.thefifthimperium.com/en ... gton/290/1

An 8,500,000-ton SD(P) takes 23 months to build and work up, using a Manticoran-style "hard" shipyard.

An "old-style" 6,000,000-ton DN would take 20.1 months using the same yard.

A 1,750,000-ton BC(P) takes 16.95 months using the same yard.

A 2,000,000-ton BC(L) takes 20.1 months using the same yard.

So, allowing for the same sort of construction rates, I'd guesstimate an off-the-cuff "fly away" time requirement for a 4,000,000-ton BB(P) to come in somewhere around 19 months (you'd save a little time over a standard BB or a Nike-class BC(L) because of the hollow missile core), at which point you recognize a time-saving over an all-up SD(P) of perhaps four months. If you're turning them out in a production-line fashion, with new construction slotting into the queue as soon as building space becomes available, a four-month savings isn't really very significant on the scale at which these people are operating.

Bottom line: If an SD(P) only needs ~20% longer to complete than a BB(P), an DN(P) would only be marginally quicker to build than a true SD(P). Probably a few weeks.

So no, they can't build DN(P)'s faster than SD(P)'s, at least not that much faster that it would matter. And that's even without covering the little problems of having no DN(P) designs at the ready AND having no experience with DN(P)'s at all.