(SPOILERS) Is Nynian to be trusted?

I've been thinking a bit about Nynian... I stopped thinking about her as anyone else about the time Merlin did...

The following is what has provoked most of my thought:

“Either we’re going to trust one another a great deal eventually, Merlin,” she said, “or this is going to end very badly for someone.”

I wonder if she thinks she can threaten Merlin... Given her understanding of what would have happened if she had not been convinced of the truth of what would have happened had she been unconvinced by the Sisters of St. Khody, there is no doubt but what she understands the stakes... Chances are she understands very well that Merlin can threaten her were he inclined to do so... I would hope that if trusting her were to turn out badly, he result would not be an unfortunate accident, but a rather long trip to Nimue's cave and an even longer sleep until it would be safe to awaken her.

Nynian seems far better prepared as a candidate for the inner circle than anyone else so far, including Nahrman. The "saint" of her order of sisters apparently had trouble with the party line to the extent of writing down his thoughts in a language no one can read. He may well have had the impulse to change sides, although we don't really know the stakes of that conflict. Nynian refers to Khody as a saint, even though the church has tried to suppress his memory. She has deduced that Safehold may well not have been humanity's original home. She is confident that some of the "Testimonies" at least, have been forged or edited. She does devoutly believe in God without having it tied up with the party line which also is something which describes Michael Staynair.

My own original speculation on this subject is that Nynian is friend, not foe. I'm still convinced of that. In her favor, she has done a lot more "trusting" so far than Merlin has. What she knows about Merlin so far is what she has deduced, not what he has told her. That is undoubtedly because she has come to Merlin, and not the other way around.
This last, of course, is what has everyone so uncomfortable. The inner circle is accustomed to vetting its candidates first and then springing the truth as their surprise. For someone to approach them implies a loss of control which they don't care for, quite understandably.

My own thought is that she should be brought in with clear warning that she cannot share what she learns with anyone else. To be sure, she could run back and report to the sisters after hearing the full revelation. But I don't think she will. She impresses me as a person of character in the positive sense. If she agrees to the stipulation, she will keep her word. And, as we have seen so far, NOBODY is better at Nynian at keeping secrets! She doesn't even tell herself what she knows most of the time!

Any thoughts here other than mine?

SPOILER WARNING



n7axw wrote:

I wonder if she thinks she can threaten Merlin...

I think not. I think that was merely her way of ironically saying that she realises that she knows enough about Merlin that he would have to kill her if he didn't trust her with that knowledge. Remember that Zhevons was barely able to keep her from suiciding when he revealed he knew about Dennis's wife. If Merlin wanted her killed, then all he would have to do would be to reveal to the inquisition how much damaging information about them that she had been collecting over the years. Of course, the inquisition would have to catch her first. However, doing so would be easier than them catching Merlin.

~Tonto

I have had only one concern regarding Nynian. She is a passionate believer. She will meet her obligations to the God she believes so passionately in. If she believes that Merlin serves her God's enemy, she will fight against Merlin with everything she has. No word of honor will stop her just as no promise I made to someone I discovered served the devil would stop me from doing everything I could to defeat the devil.

There is several levels of thrust to consider here.

First the someone she speaks of is probably herself in her mind, not the other way around.

* She obviously need something from Merlin, probably quite critical, and his actions has convinced her he is not a foe, but I'm pretty sure she is still very cautious.

* Then, does she reveals all or keep some parts in the dark ? From the little we really know of her, she will probably keeps some things out until she is totally sure of Merlin. At least to insure safety of her group if not herself. Remember she had no calms about suicide.

* I think the keypoint is Merlin status and the Seijin lore she is the only one to know of. From the exchange, it seems she has some assumptions, including the presence of another org, but we have no indication so far she is aware of St Zernhau brotherhood. What Merlin will reveal about himself could be critical here as he absolutely cannot be caught lying I think, and she is probably very astute at detecting BS. Nimue, as a female Seijin, could be a problem btw.

* from Charis point of view, they have 3 solutions :
- keep hidden letting Merlin be the interface,
- reveal partially the truth,
- accept her as a full member of the inner circle.

The first 2 are fraught with danger as Nynian BS detector could (and would probably) twitch, and they also need her full cooperation.
The last one depends on what is in Kohdy journal.

One point which bother me is her means of communication. She obviously has some which was so far undetectable to the SNARC. could it be some other artfact/relic ?
A second one is the extent of her spy network. We know it is dense in Zion and Sidamark, what it is in Charis ?

n7axw wrote:I've been thinking a bit about Nynian... I stopped thinking about her as anyone else about the time Merlin did...

The following is what has provoked most of my thought:

“Either we’re going to trust one another a great deal eventually, Merlin,” she said, “or this is going to end very badly for someone.”

I wonder if she thinks she can threaten Merlin... Given her understanding of what would have happened if she had not been convinced of the truth of what would have happened had she been unconvinced by the Sisters of St. Khody, there is no doubt but what she understands the stakes... Chances are she understands very well that Merlin can threaten her were he inclined to do so... I would hope that if trusting her were to turn out badly, he result would not be an unfortunate accident, but a rather long trip to Nimue's cave and an even longer sleep until it would be safe to awaken her.

Nynian seems far better prepared as a candidate for the inner circle than anyone else so far, including Nahrman. The "saint" of her order of sisters apparently had trouble with the party line to the extent of writing down his thoughts in a language no one can read. He may well have had the impulse to change sides, although we don't really know the stakes of that conflict. Nynian refers to Khody as a saint, even though the church has tried to suppress his memory. She has deduced that Safehold may well not have been humanity's original home. She is confident that some of the "Testimonies" at least, have been forged or edited. She does devoutly believe in God without having it tied up with the party line which also is something which describes Michael Staynair.

My own original speculation on this subject is that Nynian is friend, not foe. I'm still convinced of that. In her favor, she has done a lot more "trusting" so far than Merlin has. What she knows about Merlin so far is what she has deduced, not what he has told her. That is undoubtedly because she has come to Merlin, and not the other way around.
This last, of course, is what has everyone so uncomfortable. The inner circle is accustomed to vetting its candidates first and then springing the truth as their surprise. For someone to approach them implies a loss of control which they don't care for, quite understandably.

My own thought is that she should be brought in with clear warning that she cannot share what she learns with anyone else. To be sure, she could run back and report to the sisters after hearing the full revelation. But I don't think she will. She impresses me as a person of character in the positive sense. If she agrees to the stipulation, she will keep her word. And, as we have seen so far, NOBODY is better at Nynian at keeping secrets! She doesn't even tell herself what she knows most of the time!

Any thoughts here other than mine?

IMO she can be trusted.

However, I get the idea that it'd take Father Paityr's verifier to know if she was lying.

I doubt that even Prince Nahrmahn could tell if she was lying.

PeterZ wrote:I have had only one concern regarding Nynian. She is a passionate believer. She will meet her obligations to the God she believes so passionately in. If she believes that Merlin serves her God's enemy, she will fight against Merlin with everything she has. No word of honor will stop her just as no promise I made to someone I discovered served the devil would stop me from doing everything I could to defeat the devil.

PeterZ wrote:I have had only one concern regarding Nynian. She is a passionate believer. She will meet her obligations to the God she believes so passionately in. If she believes that Merlin serves her God's enemy, she will fight against Merlin with everything she has. No word of honor will stop her just as no promise I made to someone I discovered served the devil would stop me from doing everything I could to defeat the devil.

I think the same would apply to Archbishop "Mike". Not everybody is coming out of the same mold and there are going to be differences. She I a already in deep enough for the Inquisition to have been interested in her before her revolution.

My concern is how she is going to react to one or more PICAs. She has handled Helm Cleaver. It is recognizable as a (powerful) sword, but she does not know its composition nor would she be any more able to make educated guesses about that than I am. "Houseman" is a different story but he is already in.

I think she is going to need time to adjust when Merlin demonstrates just what s/he is. But will because she pretty much has to. Which brings up another question - Has the Zion circle heard of Nimue? All in all, I think she's going to have to be taken to the cave for final assimilation. The irony is that she does not totally trust Merlin, not the other way around. She is going to need proof, including a playback of the hologram before she is going to be comfortable with who/what Merlin is. She does not know of the circle of Charis, no matter how much she suspects, so the exposure of that is going to be a scene I am looking forward to.

Earldrygulch,

Not really arguing. I just want to emphasize that Nynian's belief structure might well place Merlin as a demon servant of Shan-wei. That would make Merlin servant of evil regardless of Clyntahn's evil. Arguing with a very smart and devout believer in Christ that the devil is actually good is likely to be a no win proposition.

All the other documents she has had access to might prepare her to believe Merlin. Then again, they might not. This isn't a slam dunk nor is it close to even money. The odds that Nynian will believe is small enough that telling her the truth should only be done in dire need.

PeterZ wrote:Earldrygulch,

Not really arguing. I just want to emphasize that Nynian's belief structure might well place Merlin as a demon servant of Shan-wei. That would make Merlin servant of evil regardless of Clyntahn's evil. Arguing with a very smart and devout believer in Christ that the devil is actually good is likely to be a no win proposition.

All the other documents she has had access to might prepare her to believe Merlin. Then again, they might not. This isn't a slam dunk nor is it close to even money. The odds that Nynian will believe is small enough that telling her the truth should only be done in dire need.

I think that the odds for Nynian are actually better than I would have given you on Father Paityr... For one thing, she is already accustomed to the notion that the church's party line isn't completely true. That at least half the battle, right there.

Secondly, there seems to me to be a mature feel to what we've seen of her spirituality. This is one of the reasons I'm prone to trust her. Her whole life has been spent opposing the church's corruption in ways that protect innocent human life. The reason she comes to Merlin is that she sees those same things in him.

Your post is interesting Peter, expressing the same anxiety over the loss of control that the inner circle was reflecting in the previous snippet. Understandable and it certainly demonstrates how we as readers get caught up in the story.

I think they pretty well have to bring her in. I'm not sure about the timing. Maybe we should see if she will produce the writings of St Khody and find out what was written in Espanol. But at minimim Merlin is going to have to tell her his own story including how he arrived, the truth about the archangels and so on. How soon she learns about the brethren and the full story about the inner circle is something further to consider.

Don

Don,

I am not arguing to keep her in the dark completely. Far from it. She has information that might inform Merlin and OWL about the the Temple. That information might well allow the direct strike everyone wants so badly. If she swing the good guys way, life get much easier much more quickly.

I agree that I would give her better odds than Father Paityr. Trouble is that had Paityr not reacted well, he could have had an accident that the SSK are so practiced at arranging. Nynian would be expecting such a possibility and would likely be able to avoid getting caught out had she not believed.

So even if she had the better odds of believing than Father Paityr, she is by far the bigger risk. They had better think long and hard about what to tell her, if for no other reason than to prevent her from avoiding surveillance. Caution isn't about keeping control, Don. It is about risking the destruction of the plan to free Safehold. No one in the Inner Circle would care if Nynian ran the show if she believed the truth. IF she believed. If she doesn't, she can potentially destroy Charis's support of its own people.

Right now--i.e. before we really do know- It's the old -"The enemy of my enemy is my friend" bit. If she's really devout- it may turn into- "The enemy of my enemy is my enemy too."

That's what's fun about all this.

Do you sometimes wonder if the Mad Wizard writes these books primarily with snippits in mind?
An alarming number of them are cliff-hangers.