HFQ Offical Snippet #4

I think the fact that Merlin notes that Safehold has reverted to a male dominated society implies that it was not initially created as such. Of course that's just my deduction, I don't believe it's explicitly specified in the text... hence all the discussion I guess

DrakBibliophile wrote:Minor follow-up, nobody here really disagrees with the idea that Safehold has, in many ways, a male dominated society.

Most are disagreeing with the idea that Safehold societies were designed by the Archangels to be male dominated societies.

History rather suggests that a low tech muscle-powered agragrian society and male-domination of that society tend to go together. Maybe Langhorne considered it one of the prices that had to be paid for the survival of humanity, and set it up that way so that Safehold society would be set into a sustainable cultural mould from the beginning? Or maybe not? It would be interesting to hear what RFC says. But maybe he is wise enough to stay away from such a hot potato. (I don't think we have actually seen very much about what, if anything, the Writ says about gender roles.)

Maybe Kohdi is remembered as a womaniser because he was!

I suppose such minor issues (gender inequality and the like) can be ignored since DW has seen fit to address the major issue of designated hitters (the pitcher bats for himself at least in Telsburg). This may be the singular doctrinal difference that drives the divide between the COGA and Charis - the DH rule or lack thereof.

chickladoria wrote:I suppose such minor issues (gender inequality and the like) can be ignored since DW has seen fit to address the major issue of designated hitters (the pitcher bats for himself at least in Telsburg). This may be the singular doctrinal difference that drives the divide between the COGA and Charis - the DH rule or lack thereof.

Since the umpires are part of the clergy and King Haarald was wise enough to pick and choose his battles, I suspect the DH has never evolved on Safehold. The Inquisition would have kyboshed that heresy very early on. Heck, the order of Jwo-jeng would have defined this bit of secular doctrine before they lost out to the Sheulerites.

The implication of the first book is that Safehold was originally established as an egalitarian, literate society. Because power seeks it's own, and because control is a necessary component of power, divisions in society are contrasted more sharply as those in power highlight those differences to create class warfare. The needs of a pre-industrial, agrarian society presented obvious divisions in labor that promoted a patriarchal society. As literacy rates drop, women become "less useful" than men. This accelerates the move toward partiarchy. Someone then realizes that not only are men "superior" to women, but that some men are superior to others. This leads to greater class division, which leads to indentured servitude which leads to the slavery/serfdom practiced in Harchong.

Surely Bedard realized that this would be the logical conclusion of their plans, but it was unavoidable without significant DNA tampering or industrialization.

It was inferred that Langhorne and Bedard were not very well versed in history. I suspect neither were the well versed in economics. If their primary areas of expertise were politics, psychology and management, they might well not realize how inevitably patriarchy would from their plan.

eldrwyrm wrote:The implication of the first book is that Safehold was originally established as an egalitarian, literate society. Because power seeks it's own, and because control is a necessary component of power, divisions in society are contrasted more sharply as those in power highlight those differences to create class warfare. The needs of a pre-industrial, agrarian society presented obvious divisions in labor that promoted a patriarchal society. As literacy rates drop, women become "less useful" than men. This accelerates the move toward partiarchy. Someone then realizes that not only are men "superior" to women, but that some men are superior to others. This leads to greater class division, which leads to indentured servitude which leads to the slavery/serfdom practiced in Harchong.

Surely Bedard realized that this would be the logical conclusion of their plans, but it was unavoidable without significant DNA tampering or industrialization.

I think Randomizer has it right. They knew exactly what the price would be in terms of gender inequality and decided to pay it anyway.

Don

True but would they care even if they knew that "male dominated societies" would be the rule?

They were fanatics about "protecting Mankind from the Gbaba by keeping Mankind low-tech".

They may have seen "male dominated societies" as an acceptable price to pay for keeping Mankind low-tech.

Mind you, I wonder how the fact that the Devil figure on Safehold was female influenced the Church and society especially the Church.

It's possible that the original setup of the Church allowed for higher ranking female members of the Clergy but after the last Archangels died, the Church decided that because the "Greatest Of The Fallen" was female, then females should not reach be allowed in the higher ranks of the Clergy.

PeterZ wrote:It was inferred that Langhorne and Bedard were not very well versed in history. I suspect neither were the well versed in economics. If their primary areas of expertise were politics, psychology and management, they might well not realize how inevitably patriarchy would from their plan.

eldrwyrm wrote:The implication of the first book is that Safehold was originally established as an egalitarian, literate society. Because power seeks it's own, and because control is a necessary component of power, divisions in society are contrasted more sharply as those in power highlight those differences to create class warfare. The needs of a pre-industrial, agrarian society presented obvious divisions in labor that promoted a patriarchal society. As literacy rates drop, women become "less useful" than men. This accelerates the move toward partiarchy. Someone then realizes that not only are men "superior" to women, but that some men are superior to others. This leads to greater class division, which leads to indentured servitude which leads to the slavery/serfdom practiced in Harchong.

Surely Bedard realized that this would be the logical conclusion of their plans, but it was unavoidable without significant DNA tampering or industrialization.

HI, I am so happy to finally join this club . Its only taken 4 books length .

so so happy

Ash

ashie wrote:HI, I am so happy to finally join this club . Its only taken 4 books length .

so so happy

Ash

Welcome aboard! Have a digital adult beverage on me to stimulate your thoughts and let the posts fly. Look forward to reading them.