Schueler, Chihiro, and the Post-War Development (SPOILERS)

It could be that Schuler and Chihiro were allied during the war and their views on how to run the church diverged later. That Schuler passed on the key and his views to create an ongoing legacy. Schuler being dead, it would be easy to append his name to the Book of Schuler. Also possible as smw speculated that both Schuler and Chihiro were dead and some later fanatic or group of fanatics wrote both the books and put Schulers and Chihiros names on the books. Hopefully Nynian will have access to records of the true history of the war of the fallen and the early church.

SWM wrote:Technically, we don't know that Chihiro wrote any of the Writ, just as we suspect that Schueler didn't. I'm not sure we have text evidence about any of the survivors of the War, except for Schueler because of his association with the Wylsynn family. Specifically, we do not know that Chihiro or Schueler were the top surviving crew members.

Sharp Claw wrote:It could be that Schuler and Chihiro were allied during the war and their views on how to run the church diverged later. That Schuler passed on the key and his views to create an ongoing legacy. Schuler being dead, it would be easy to append his name to the Book of Schuler. Also possible as smw speculated that both Schuler and Chihiro were dead and some later fanatic or group of fanatics wrote both the books and put Schulers and Chihiros names on the books. Hopefully Nynian will have access to records of the true history of the war of the fallen and the early church.

There is a specific piece of textev that I mentioned in my original post that strongly indicates that Chihiro lived long past the War period--the bust of Chihiro that Clyntahn smashed in one of his tantrums. The bust was described as sculpted by a *second-century (1xx)* master *from life*--in other words, at some point more than a century after the end of the War, a living Chihiro sat as a model for that bust to be created.

Based on the clarified timeline information and command crew actuarial data that RFC has given us in certain forum posts (reproduced in the Safehold FAQ), it's clear that Chihiro sat for the creation of this bust as an old man, at least 250 years old, and possibly closer to 300--the natural end of his lifespan, given the Federation longevity treatments available to him.

The above isn't speculation; it's information directly pulled from the text or RFC's forum posts.

My speculation is that given the above, and how Chihiro is characterized in the official history (author of the Writ, among other things), it's almost certain that Chihiro was the author of the official history. Based on Nynian's initial revelations about Saint Kohdy, it's pretty likely that Chihiro had no particular problem with airbrushing history to suit his purposes--in a larger sense, given his loyalty to Langhorne's vision, that is painfully obvious.

(Chihiro was the official historian, his longevity and surviving reputation suggests this was actually the case, and since the official history reflects the Langhorne/Bedard view of things, we can conclude that Chihiro remained loyal to that vision.)

Schueler is even more intriguing, since the various data we have about him are so contradictory. The profoundly evil Book of Schueler is intrinsically bound up in the duties of the Inquisition, but the hologram of Schueler that laid his charge on the Wylsynn family reveals a very different man, stern but not savage. Even though the modern Order of Schueler is almost synonymous with the Inquisition, the founding home of the Inquisition was within the Order of Bedard (!), and those duties were not transferred into the Order of Schueler until the reforms of Saint Greyghor in YoG 650 (!!), at which time the Schuelerites also absorbed the Order of Jwo-jeng.

YoG 650 is about 400 years after the end of Schueler's extended life expectancy, based on RFC's posts about the command crew in the FAQ, so Schueler and the rest of the command crew should have been dead for several centuries at that point. Clearly, the Order of Schueler was working on building its political power within the CoGA during that time--possibly as a result of the secret charge to the Wylsynns--but what were its actual, official duties? Every bit of the modern characterization of the Order of Schueler relies on the powers it gained in 650--the authority to apply the Proscriptions almost certainly came from absorbing the Order of Jwo-jeng, and ownership of the Inquisition came from the Bedardists.

The first 650 years of the Order of Schueler's history is a nearly complete mystery at this point, unlike every other major Order. The character of Schueler the man and the early history of his Order may be related...and we impatiently await further snippets.

CSB wrote:Schueler is even more intriguing, since the various data we have about him are so contradictory. The profoundly evil Book of Schueler is intrinsically bound up in the duties of the Inquisition, but the hologram of Schueler that laid his charge on the Wylsynn family reveals a very different man, stern but not savage. Even though the modern Order of Schueler is almost synonymous with the Inquisition, the founding home of the Inquisition was within the Order of Bedard (!), and those duties were not transferred into the Order of Schueler until the reforms of Saint Greyghor in YoG 650 (!!), at which time the Schuelerites also absorbed the Order of Jwo-jeng.

YoG 650 is about 400 years after the end of Schueler's extended life expectancy, based on RFC's posts about the command crew in the FAQ, so Schueler and the rest of the command crew should have been dead for several centuries at that point. Clearly, the Order of Schueler was working on building its political power within the CoGA during that time--possibly as a result of the secret charge to the Wylsynns--but what were its actual, official duties? Every bit of the modern characterization of the Order of Schueler relies on the powers it gained in 650--the authority to apply the Proscriptions almost certainly came from absorbing the Order of Jwo-jeng, and ownership of the Inquisition came from the Bedardists.

But why is the brutal punishment for heretics and everything described in the Book of Schueler if the Order of Bedard was responsible for its application for the first 650 years?

Does this support the theory that the book wasn't written by Schueler but by someone else who wanted to be ironical or to drag Schueler's name in the mud but also didn't want to give the Schuelerites the power over the Inquisition?
The effect would be that Schueler officially wrote the book but his order wasn't responsible for its application at this certain moment in time.
A reason for that could be that the old Schuelerites would still be under strong influence of Schueler's ideals and the Bedardists seemed to be the better choice. Ironical how both orders changed over the centuries.

Boronian wrote:But why is the brutal punishment for heretics and everything described in the Book of Schueler if the Order of Bedard was responsible for its application for the first 650 years?

That's a very good question, but I don't have a good answer for it. The text of the Book of Schueler matched up perfectly with the modern Order of Schueler under Grand Inquisitor Clyntahn at the beginning of the series, in terms of official duties and culture, but it wasn't until much later that Merlin and the readers were informed that this parallel structure was of considerably more recent origins. (Merlin finds out about Father Paityr's hologram message; the readers see both that message and information about the history of the Orders in the Appendices starting with...LAMA?)

Boronian wrote:Does this support the theory that the book wasn't written by Schueler but by someone else who wanted to be ironical or to drag Schueler's name in the mud but also didn't want to give the Schuelerites the power over the Inquisition?
The effect would be that Schueler officially wrote the book but his order wasn't responsible for its application at this certain moment in time.
A reason for that could be that the old Schuelerites would still be under strong influence of Schueler's ideals and the Bedardists seemed to be the better choice. Ironical how both orders changed over the centuries.

The argument is that Chihiro believed that the original Order of Schueler was insufficiently strict to enforce the text of the Book of Schueler with enough vigor, so he encouraged the development of the Inquisition within the Order of Bedard instead? I'm not sure that's right, but frankly, it's as solid as any idea I can come up with.

There's one problem I'd like to reiterate with regard to the "dragging Schueler's name through the mud." Who is the target audience of that defamation?

It can't be anyone who is native to Safehold, raised within the context of the *universal* CoGA dogma. According to *every* source of official moral authority, Schueler is a faithful Archangel who stayed true to Langhorne's vision--God's Plan for Safehold. According to the Writ, Schueler stated that departing from God's Plan was a grievous sin, and only the threat or reality of the gravest punishment would be sufficient to keep the worst and most foolish mortals in line.

Safehold does not have a diversity of schools of philosophical thought. Sure, some people here and there might spark off an intuition that the cruelty of the Book of Schueler isn't necessary, but there simply isn't a "humanist" philosophical tradition that would have a hope of providing an alternate moral framework from which to critique the Writ directly. It's a bootstrapping problem: you can't critique the starting assumptions of a moral system from *within* that system. Archbishop Maikel is doing an amazing job sticking crowbars into every intellectual crack he can find, but he got the confidence and rationale to attack that system from external knowledge, and his attacks are camouflaged as "friendly amendments."

If the attempt to "blacken Schueler's reputation" isn't directed at native Safeholdians within the CoGA framework, who would be left, according to Chihiro? And following Schueler's death, whenever that occurred, what purpose could it serve?

CSB wrote:The argument is that Chihiro believed that the original Order of Schueler was insufficiently strict to enforce the text of the Book of Schueler with enough vigor, so he encouraged the development of the Inquisition within the Order of Bedard instead? I'm not sure that's right, but frankly, it's as solid as any idea I can come up with.

Yeah, that is what I meant, but you described it better. Maybe the Schuelerites and the Bedardists swapped their respective roles over the centuries. Someone had to do the Bedardists' job before the year 650.

CSB wrote:There's one problem I'd like to reiterate with regard to the "dragging Schueler's name through the mud." Who is the target audience of that defamation?

I follow your logic and I have to admit I just wrote it to add some other possibility but it is not very convincing, that is right. But on the other hand I think the irony argument is better. I can imagine very well Chihiro (or whoever wrote it) enjoying the irony of putting his enemy's name on a product he knew Schueler would had contempted. This irony doesn't has to be directed at anyone except himself. In my mind I see Chihiro with this little curious smile on his lips every time someone cited the book of Schueler. He knew exactly what would happen to Schueler's legacy over the time. Sounds like a good revenge. Who knows. At the moment we have much too few information of course.

Boronian wrote:Maybe the Schuelerites and the Bedardists swapped their respective roles over the centuries. Someone had to do the Bedardists' job before the year 650.

The modern Order of Bedard is the primary teaching Order, and joins the Order of Pasquale as one of the two primary charitable Orders. My guess is that prior to Saint Greyghor's reforms, the Order of Pasquale was the only major charitable Order, and that organized teaching was somewhat neglected--remember, Safehold went through a significant period where adult literacy dropped considerably for a long time. It wouldn't surprise me if Saint Greyghor's reforms--specifically the Order of Bedard reforming itself as the primary teaching Order--is what reversed that trend.

Also, if the Inquisition under Clyntahn is frightening, imagine the Inquisition run by the Order that represents *every trained psychologist humanity has.* I still remember reading one of the early Honor Harrington books, where they refer to Haven's "Mental Hygiene Police" (later absorbed into InSec/StateSec), and that phrase was just horrifying to me.

Still, I agree, I'd like to know what the original Order of Schueler actually *did*.

Boronian wrote:But on the other hand I think the irony argument is better. I can imagine very well Chihiro (or whoever wrote it) enjoying the irony of putting his enemy's name on a product he knew Schueler would had contempted. This irony doesn't has to be directed at anyone except himself. In my mind I see Chihiro with this little curious smile on his lips every time someone cited the book of Schueler. He knew exactly what would happen to Schueler's legacy over the time. Sounds like a good revenge. Who knows. At the moment we have much too few information of course.

Could be; petty sniping isn't pretty, but it's a common thing that people do. Need more snippets.

CSB wrote:...
If the attempt to "blacken Schueler's reputation" isn't directed at native Safeholdians within the CoGA framework, who would be left, according to Chihiro? And following Schueler's death, whenever that occurred, what purpose could it serve?

I know some people who would very happily do something like that with their exes names.

One thought on the problem that the Book of Schueler describes the punishment for Heretics while the Inquisition was originally part of the Order of Bedard.

IMO it makes since if you think of the Inquisition as the Investigation Team and the Order of Schueler as originally the Judicial Team.

In other words, the Inquisition were the police and the Order of Schueler were the Judges.

Now the Inquisition is both the Police and the Judges. Not a good situation.

There seem to be an awful lot of assumptions going on in this thread about the personal connections of various archangels and the books and orders named after them, for which I don't think there is a lot of textev.

There is textev that regardless whose name appears on the title pages of the various books Chihiro wrote most of the Writ. All the books had to be attached to some Archangel's name to help validate them and there may not have been too many prominent Archangel's left to hang what became the Book of Scheuler on by the time it was written. We have no idea how much or little of it he may have written. The idea that it blackens his name is very fanciful. It hasn't done so for the vast majority of the time since it was written. The modern Inquisition is what has blackened his name in some quarters.

Similarly all the big orders had to be named for some prominent archangel regardless of how much or little personal influence (s)he had on its early members. It was supposed to be inspired by the Archangel's public role, not necessarily their personality.

DrakBibliophile wrote:One thought on the problem that the Book of Schueler describes the punishment for Heretics while the Inquisition was originally part of the Order of Bedard.

IMO it makes since if you think of the Inquisition as the Investigation Team and the Order of Schueler as originally the Judicial Team.

In other words, the Inquisition were the police and the Order of Schueler were the Judges.

Now the Inquisition is both the Police and the Judges. Not a good situation.

Except that the Order of Langhorne is specifically named as the source of all Church Jurists with no indication it ever had any different role.