Schueler, Chihiro, and the Post-War Development (SPOILERS)

Clearly, HFQ is going to have a whole bunch more information on the historical development of Safehold following the War Against the Fallen than previous books. I expect some of this theorizing will be proven incorrect by the snippets released over the next few months, but on the off chance that any of it is correct, I wanted to throw out some ideas.

We've known since OAR that Kau-yung managed to take out Langhorne, Bedard, and the bulk of the command crew with his vest-pocket nuke. The senior surviving members of the command crew were almost certainly Schueler and Chihiro, who then fought against the remnants of Shan-wei's supporters. That war lasted a few decades; "Year 0" marks the end of that conflict.

Based on several hints by RFC, the remaining command crew did not all see eye-to-eye on several significant issues (mostly unspecified so far), and there was some level of conflict among them following the War. Merlin and the reader both know that what's written in the Testimonies and the Writ is a bunch of propaganda written by the victors of that conflict, but without more information, it's very hard to separate fact from fiction in the official histories. Father Paityr's hologram suggested that there was a fair amount of fiction in the mix; the records of the SSK that Nynian is sharing with Merlin will likely provide a great deal more detail. (As a side note, I expect there will be a connection between Archangel Andropov--see the appendices in one of the last two books--and Seijin Kohdy.)

The central characters of this period will probably be Schueler and Chihiro. What do we know about them?

Officially, Schueler was the guardian/enforcer of CoGA doctrine, while Chihiro was the author of the Writ. The Book of Schueler is a work of *great* evil, and while the official history says that Schueler was responsible for what's in his book...that history was written by Chihiro, and seems to fit poorly with the character of the man who founded the Wylsynn dynasty. Suspicious, but not conclusive.

We don't know when Schueler died, but Chihiro lived for quite a long time after the War, and was probably one of the last of the surviving command crew. There's a scene with Clyntahn and Rayno in Clyntahn's rooms--I believe it's the first scene where Clyntahn is throwing a tantrum of epic proportions--where he smashes several irreplaceable art objects, including a marble bust of Chihiro that is credited to a *second-century* master sculptor who created it *from life.* Based on that tidbit, we know that Chihiro lived a minimum of a full century post-War, and possibly up to two centuries.

(There's a suggestion-by-proximity that Chihiro was the type of Archangel that Clyntahn approved of, since the bust was in his personal quarters. Not proof, but maybe a small clue that Chihiro was the major villain of the post-War period.)

The Order of Jwo-Jeng was absorbed into the Order of Schueler in 650, and the Schuelerites also picked up the Grand Inquisitorship at that point (from the Bedardists!) as a result of "Saint Greyghor's reforms." The head of the Order of Langhorne lost his mandatory seat on the Council of Vicars in 810; the only Order heads that now have mandatory seats are Schueler, Bedard, and Chihiro. (MTAT Appendices) Do we know if Saint Greyghor was a Wylsynn? The net effect of the reforms of 650 was to convert the Order of Bedard from the source of the Inquisition to teaching and service, and to increase the influence of the Order of Schueler--the traditional home of the Wylsynn dynasty. By 810, the Schuelerites (led by the Wylsynns?) were able to parlay that added strength into dominating the Order of Langhorne. Incidentally, it's not clear what the original function of the Order of Schueler was--the modern Order is practically synonymous with the Inquisition, but the Inquisition was Bedardist until 650.

If it turns out that Chihiro was the major villain of the post-War period, and Schueler was at least marginally decent, the comparison to the modern political structure of the CoGA would be fairly ironic. (I think this is a point in favor of my theory; RFC likes dramatic irony!) The head of the Schuelerites is profoundly evil, and the two(?) representatives of Chihiro's order on the Go4--Duchairn and Maigwair--seem to be on a redemption arc.

My only nit is that "the War Against the Fallen" is IMO misnamed.

The "war" against Shan-wei and her followers wasn't much of a war as Langhorne "started it" by using the OBS against the Alexandria Enclave and ended when Kau-yung nuked Langhorne.

I took David Weber's comments about the War Against the Fallen was that the war was actually between supporters of Langhorne over "who would be in charge" and/or "how best to take Langhorne's plan forward".

While there may have been some of Shan-wei's allies left after Langhorne's death, the fighting was in the main among Langhorne's supporters.

Other than that nit, your post is interesting.

CSB wrote:Clearly, HFQ is going to have a whole bunch more information on the historical development of Safehold following the War Against the Fallen than previous books. I expect some of this theorizing will be proven incorrect by the snippets released over the next few months, but on the off chance that any of it is correct, I wanted to throw out some ideas.

We've known since OAR that Kau-yung managed to take out Langhorne, Bedard, and the bulk of the command crew with his vest-pocket nuke. The senior surviving members of the command crew were almost certainly Schueler and Chihiro, who then fought against the remnants of Shan-wei's supporters. That war lasted a few decades; "Year 0" marks the end of that conflict.

Based on several hints by RFC, the remaining command crew did not all see eye-to-eye on several significant issues (mostly unspecified so far), and there was some level of conflict among them following the War. Merlin and the reader both know that what's written in the Testimonies and the Writ is a bunch of propaganda written by the victors of that conflict, but without more information, it's very hard to separate fact from fiction in the official histories. Father Paityr's hologram suggested that there was a fair amount of fiction in the mix; the records of the SSK that Nynian is sharing with Merlin will likely provide a great deal more detail. (As a side note, I expect there will be a connection between Archangel Andropov--see the appendices in one of the last two books--and Seijin Kohdy.)

The central characters of this period will probably be Schueler and Chihiro. What do we know about them?

Officially, Schueler was the guardian/enforcer of CoGA doctrine, while Chihiro was the author of the Writ. The Book of Schueler is a work of *great* evil, and while the official history says that Schueler was responsible for what's in his book...that history was written by Chihiro, and seems to fit poorly with the character of the man who founded the Wylsynn dynasty. Suspicious, but not conclusive.

We don't know when Schueler died, but Chihiro lived for quite a long time after the War, and was probably one of the last of the surviving command crew. There's a scene with Clyntahn and Rayno in Clyntahn's rooms--I believe it's the first scene where Clyntahn is throwing a tantrum of epic proportions--where he smashes several irreplaceable art objects, including a marble bust of Chihiro that is credited to a *second-century* master sculptor who created it *from life.* Based on that tidbit, we know that Chihiro lived a minimum of a full century post-War, and possibly up to two centuries.

(There's a suggestion-by-proximity that Chihiro was the type of Archangel that Clyntahn approved of, since the bust was in his personal quarters. Not proof, but maybe a small clue that Chihiro was the major villain of the post-War period.)

The Order of Jwo-Jeng was absorbed into the Order of Schueler in 650, and the Schuelerites also picked up the Grand Inquisitorship at that point (from the Bedardists!) as a result of "Saint Greyghor's reforms." The head of the Order of Langhorne lost his mandatory seat on the Council of Vicars in 810; the only Order heads that now have mandatory seats are Schueler, Bedard, and Chihiro. (MTAT Appendices) Do we know if Saint Greyghor was a Wylsynn? The net effect of the reforms of 650 was to convert the Order of Bedard from the source of the Inquisition to teaching and service, and to increase the influence of the Order of Schueler--the traditional home of the Wylsynn dynasty. By 810, the Schuelerites (led by the Wylsynns?) were able to parlay that added strength into dominating the Order of Langhorne. Incidentally, it's not clear what the original function of the Order of Schueler was--the modern Order is practically synonymous with the Inquisition, but the Inquisition was Bedardist until 650.

If it turns out that Chihiro was the major villain of the post-War period, and Schueler was at least marginally decent, the comparison to the modern political structure of the CoGA would be fairly ironic. (I think this is a point in favor of my theory; RFC likes dramatic irony!) The head of the Schuelerites is profoundly evil, and the two(?) representatives of Chihiro's order on the Go4--Duchairn and Maigwair--seem to be on a redemption arc.

CSB wrote: . . . I expect some of this theorizing will be proven incorrect by the snippets released over the next few months, . . .

Truer word are seldom spoken.

Thank you for that post, well done.

DrakBibliophile wrote:My only nit is that "the War Against the Fallen" is IMO misnamed.

The "war" against Shan-wei and her followers wasn't much of a war as Langhorne "started it" by using the OBS against the Alexandria Enclave and ended when Kau-yung nuked Langhorne.

I took David Weber's comments about the War Against the Fallen was that the war was actually between supporters of Langhorne over "who would be in charge" and/or "how best to take Langhorne's plan forward".

While there may have been some of Shan-wei's allies left after Langhorne's death, the fighting was in the main among Langhorne's supporters.

Other than that nit, your post is interesting.

???

I'm not sure where you got that conclusion. The nuke wasn't at the close of the war - the scene near the opening of OAR shows one of the Archangels being completely surprised by the nuke, and saying that the war had started earlier that expected. Indeed, he was meeting with some Adams specifically to warn them that a war was imminent, not that fighting was in progress.

DrakBibliophile wrote:My only nit is that "the War Against the Fallen" is IMO misnamed.

The "war" against Shan-wei and her followers wasn't much of a war as Langhorne "started it" by using the OBS against the Alexandria Enclave and ended when Kau-yung nuked Langhorne.

I took David Weber's comments about the War Against the Fallen was that the war was actually between supporters of Langhorne over "who would be in charge" and/or "how best to take Langhorne's plan forward".

While there may have been some of Shan-wei's allies left after Langhorne's death, the fighting was in the main among Langhorne's supporters.

Other than that nit, your post is interesting.

This is taken from one of the questions in the Safehold FAQ:

"By the time the struggle against "Shan-wei's Revolt" was over (and, by the way, it took longer to suppress that "revolt" than some people seem to be thinking, even with the strike on Alexandria, in no small part because of certain things that happened that you don't know about among the surviving members of the command staff after Commodore Pei decapitated it), most of the survivors were in the vicinity of 150 years of age or so, which means they could expect to live about another century and a half."

I realize this is ambiguous concerning the exact point we're discussing, but combined with the Glossary definition of "the Fallen"--very specifically identified as Shan-wei's adherents--I drew the conclusion that both Langhorne's strike on Alexandria and Kau-yung's nuke managed to wipe out most but not all of the opposing faction.

My understanding of the timeline:
1) Strike on Alexandria
2) (some elapsed time, not sure how much)
3) Kau-yung nukes the command crew
4) Remnants of command crew fight remnants of Shan-wei's followers; command crew wins
5) Remnants of command crew fight among themselves; Chihiro and Schueler are on the winning team and Chihiro rewrites history in the Book of Chihiro

The "War Against the Fallen" clearly starts with 1); I was thinking that it ended after 4), Year 0 happens, and then the post-War internal conflict 5) takes place. It seems that you're saying that 3) and 4) ought to be reversed, but based on the quote above, "Shan-wei's Revolt" continued after 3). I think this may require more information from snippets to resolve adequately.

OOPS!!

CSB wrote:

DrakBibliophile wrote:My only nit is that "the War Against the Fallen" is IMO misnamed.

The "war" against Shan-wei and her followers wasn't much of a war as Langhorne "started it" by using the OBS against the Alexandria Enclave and ended when Kau-yung nuked Langhorne.

I took David Weber's comments about the War Against the Fallen was that the war was actually between supporters of Langhorne over "who would be in charge" and/or "how best to take Langhorne's plan forward".

While there may have been some of Shan-wei's allies left after Langhorne's death, the fighting was in the main among Langhorne's supporters.

Other than that nit, your post is interesting.

This is taken from one of the questions in the Safehold FAQ:

"By the time the struggle against "Shan-wei's Revolt" was over (and, by the way, it took longer to suppress that "revolt" than some people seem to be thinking, even with the strike on Alexandria, in no small part because of certain things that happened that you don't know about among the surviving members of the command staff after Commodore Pei decapitated it), most of the survivors were in the vicinity of 150 years of age or so, which means they could expect to live about another century and a half."

I realize this is ambiguous concerning the exact point we're discussing, but combined with the Glossary definition of "the Fallen"--very specifically identified as Shan-wei's adherents--I drew the conclusion that both Langhorne's strike on Alexandria and Kau-yung's nuke managed to wipe out most but not all of the opposing faction.

My understanding of the timeline:
1) Strike on Alexandria
2) (some elapsed time, not sure how much)
3) Kau-yung nukes the command crew
4) Remnants of command crew fight remnants of Shan-wei's followers; command crew wins
5) Remnants of command crew fight among themselves; Chihiro and Schueler are on the winning team and Chihiro rewrites history in the Book of Chihiro

The "War Against the Fallen" clearly starts with 1); I was thinking that it ended after 4), Year 0 happens, and then the post-War internal conflict 5) takes place. It seems that you're saying that 3) and 4) ought to be reversed, but based on the quote above, "Shan-wei's Revolt" continued after 3). I think this may require more information from snippets to resolve adequately.

From another Safehold FAQ answer:

"The way that it actually works is that approximately 70 standard years (around 77 Safehold years) elapsed between the Day of Creation and the end of Shan-wei's Rebellion. As of How Firm a Foundation, the date is Year of God 895, and it's been 979 Safehold years since the Creation. Nimue's last update was in year 54 after the Creation (16 years before the end of the Rebellion, if any of you are counting), and she woke up in Year of God 890, 906 or so Safehold years later, which is roughly the 825 standard years to which I had changed the date in the first book."

That puts Kau-yung's message to Nimue at the beginning of OAR at year 54 post-Creation, and his nuke went off the day after he recorded the message. "Shan-wei's Rebellion" lasted another 16 years until victory is declared and Year 0 happens. It's very clear that the "official" version of history states that this 16 year war was between the Langhorne-loyalists and the followers of Shan-wei who weren't killed at Alexandria, but since Chihiro was the one writing that history, I suppose he could have mischaracterized the losing faction among the Langhorne-loyalist command crew as followers of Shan-wei.

CSB wrote:5) Remnants of command crew fight among themselves; Chihiro and Schueler are on the winning team and Chihiro rewrites history in the Book of Chihiro

Are we sure they were on the same side of the internal fighting? There's a good amount of speculation that Scheuler wasn't responsible for the book attributed to him. Could attributing it to him have been Chihiro's way of trying to tarnish his reputation and make him seem like the "bad cop" of the archangels?

Starsaber wrote:

CSB wrote:5) Remnants of command crew fight among themselves; Chihiro and Schueler are on the winning team and Chihiro rewrites history in the Book of Chihiro

Are we sure they were on the same side of the internal fighting? There's a good amount of speculation that Scheuler wasn't responsible for the book attributed to him. Could attributing it to him have been Chihiro's way of trying to tarnish his reputation and make him seem like the "bad cop" of the archangels?

In the modern day, both Schueler and Chihiro are considered "good Archangels." We know from the HFQ snippets that some amount of historical airbrushing had been done, and since Chihiro was the patron of scribes and historians, credited as the author of the Writ, and specifically credited as the author of the Book of Chihiro--the last Book to be added to the Writ--it's not much of a stretch to say that the official version of history is exactly what Chihiro wanted it to be. Further, since Chihiro either died of old age or close to it--he lived until the Year of God 1xx, and his augmented lifespan should have run until ~YoG 160 at age ~300--it's likely that he was one of the last surviving members of the command crew.

If Schueler and Chihiro had been on opposite sides of the internal conflict within the surviving command crew *and that division was known to others*, I'd have expected Chihiro to have purged Schueler from the ranks of the "good Archangels." Chihiro's ability to write the history of that period clearly puts him on the side of the winners; the fact that Schueler retains his non-Fallen reputation in that history strongly suggests that he was allied to Chihiro in that conflict. (Even if Schueler is unfairly portrayed as the "bad cop" in Chihiro's history, he's still depicted as one of the non-Fallen Archangels who was loyal to Langhorne and Bedard. Also, unless they know that the command crew were running a pseudo-religious scam, none of the native Safeholdians has the necessary moral framework to critique the Book of Schueler.)

If I'm right, and Chihiro is the villain of the period, I'd guess that Schueler realized this too late to do much good, saw that the CoGA was likely to run into problems some time in the future, and laid his charge on the Wylsynn family without tipping off Chihiro concerning his disaffection.

Technically, we don't know that Chihiro wrote any of the Writ, just as we suspect that Schueler didn't. I'm not sure we have text evidence about any of the survivors of the War, except for Schueler because of his association with the Wylsynn family. Specifically, we do not know that Chihiro or Schueler were the top surviving crew members.