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Proximity kills of incoming missiles via dirty nukes?

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Proximity kills of incoming missiles via dirty nukes?
Post by Somtaaw   » Mon Sep 01, 2014 11:59 am

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Wish I'd found these forums earlier but title says it all.

Ive been reading through the full series again, and while everyone always thought of proximity kills of unfired pods offensively, nobody seems to think of it as a viable missile defense.

Logic as follows:
1) missiles must be relatively close together for EW like Manticore's Dazzler or Dragon teeth to covrr.
2) When Saint-Just authorized Hassan, the nuclear tipped missile totally destroyed one yacht, and could have taken out Queen Elizabeth and Honor too, if not for both hot piloting and luck.
3) In 'War of Honor' Haven develops tje Triple Ripple tactic to strip away EW from Shrikes and Ferrets (also Katana's but officially they dont know about those yet)


Battle of Manticore is a prime example of how defensive nukes could have saved McKeon. Admiral Chin and her, hundred podnaughts I think she had, had to be firing tight salvos. Just a few nukes fired with proximity fuses, or even command detonated could have blown large holes in those MDM salvos. Or failing to eliminate the missiles like destroying the Royal Yachts in Grayson, blinding those missiles would force them to re acquire new targets, probability then says not all would acquire the podnaughts they wrre originally aimed at.


Posting via my phone, so forgive any random words that dont belong.
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Re: Proximity kills of incoming missiles via dirty nukes?
Post by kzt   » Mon Sep 01, 2014 1:57 pm

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There is the set of things that makes sense in the Honorverse and the set of things that David has written about the Honorverse. There is not a complete overlap. Don't think too hard about these sorts of things.

For example, the sensors on a MDM used to find the target fleet are grav sensors, which should not even detect a nuclear explosion, much less be blinded or damaged by it. Essentially the story describes Haven as laying smoke against radar directed gunnery.

Example 2, there is no real EMP in deep space, at least of the sort that people imagine. So the only way you get "proximity kills" is getting the warhead really, really close. Like tens of kms close, AKA contact nuke range.

It is what it is, and it isn't a physics text.
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Re: Proximity kills of incoming missiles via dirty nukes?
Post by Somtaaw   » Mon Sep 01, 2014 2:14 pm

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Understandable, however in War of Honor the Triple Ripple blinds LACs so they cannot even see impeller missiles.

Impeller drive being detected or tracked via gravimetric sensors, dirty nukes with their hard radiation do affect even hardened scanners.

Thats why it suddenly hit me that it could be viable. It would be yet another throwback to old tactics like using pods.

Pods were brought back due to advancements in the launch systems being able to perform as well as ship launchers.


With Manticore and Haveb being aligned, possibly use proxy nukes against the MAlign torpedoes with their much slower speed, and 'extremely sensitive passive sensors'. Its a brute force approach, something Haven might have used as a counter to high-tech.


I used Battle of Manticore ss my primary example because so many missiles were flying around, nuke blinding would be moe effective.
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Re: Proximity kills of incoming missiles via dirty nukes?
Post by Jonathan_S   » Mon Sep 01, 2014 4:02 pm

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Somtaaw wrote:Wish I'd found these forums earlier but title says it all.

Ive been reading through the full series again, and while everyone always thought of proximity kills of unfired pods offensively, nobody seems to think of it as a viable missile defense.
The Havenites actually tried using it; they unveiled Zizka, a defensive anti-missile variant of their Triple Ripple, during At All Costs.

Unfortunately it turned out Manticore had already anticipated that usage and altered missile tactics to eliminate its already weak potential effect.


So they just ended up proving that "everyone" was right; dirty nukes do make a really crappy missile defense. :D
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Re: Proximity kills of incoming missiles via dirty nukes?
Post by Somtaaw   » Mon Sep 01, 2014 4:33 pm

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Jonathan_S wrote:
Somtaaw wrote:Wish I'd found these forums earlier but title says it all.

Ive been reading through the full series again, and while everyone always thought of proximity kills of unfired pods offensively, nobody seems to think of it as a viable missile defense.
The Havenites actually tried using it; they unveiled Zizka, a defensive anti-missile variant of their Triple Ripple, during At All Costs.

Unfortunately it turned out Manticore had already anticipated that usage and altered missile tactics to eliminate its already weak potential effect.


So they just ended up proving that "everyone" was right; dirty nukes do make a really crappy missile defense. :D


Hmm I forgot about that one. Good catch, possibly viable, but not against a technical giant like Manticore. Still possibly of use against SLN or MAlign.

Course I looked at the Battle of Manticore again and Webster's salvos actually passed yhrough Tourville's. Assuming a single 'late launch orphan' that is in between larger salvos, and if nuclear tipped it could have annihilated the Donkey assisted avalanche which demolished Manty Home Fleet.

Likely only a one time use, but from how casual all cruiser captain's are about using nukes to warn pirates or merchants to heave to. Could still be viable, all it takes is a few well placed shots, masquerading as orphans to demolish anything from full fleets worth of pod salvos or single broadsides in one vs one combat.

I'll drop this topic as potentially viable but as your quote shows, highly unlikely
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Re: Proximity kills of incoming missiles via dirty nukes?
Post by Weird Harold   » Mon Sep 01, 2014 5:17 pm

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Somtaaw wrote:Hmm I forgot about that one. Good catch, possibly viable, but not against a technical giant like Manticore. Still possibly of use against SLN or MAlign.

Course I looked at the Battle of Manticore again and Webster's salvos actually passed through Tourville's. Assuming a single 'late launch orphan' that is in between larger salvos, and if nuclear tipped it could have annihilated the Donkey assisted avalanche which demolished Manty Home Fleet.


Another point to consider: The missiles used for Ziska/Triple Ripple were specificaly designed as "the dirtiest nukes possible" and Home Fleet (and the RMN in general) didn't/don't have any "dirty nukes" available. Nuclear/Fusion explosives in the Honorverse are "Clean Nukes" unless specifically built as "dirty nukes."
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Re: Proximity kills of incoming missiles via dirty nukes?
Post by kzt   » Mon Sep 01, 2014 5:45 pm

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Though you do have to wonder how cladding a nuke in cobalt is supposed to do anything that will enhance its effects on enemy missiles when detonated in deep space. ;)
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Re: Proximity kills of incoming missiles via dirty nukes?
Post by Weird Harold   » Mon Sep 01, 2014 5:57 pm

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kzt wrote:Though you do have to wonder how cladding a nuke in cobalt is supposed to do anything that will enhance its effects on enemy missiles when detonated in deep space. ;)


I'm sure there is more to making a "dirty Nuke" than just Cobalt cladding; Whatever makes for a "Neutron Bomb" would likely be useful in futzing LAC or missile sensors. Who knows what other tricks Honorverse Physicists might come up with.
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Re: Proximity kills of incoming missiles via dirty nukes?
Post by Somtaaw   » Mon Sep 01, 2014 6:54 pm

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Thinking about this topic I also should have been more clear about what I think is a proximity kill.

1 - actual destruction of some missiles depending on size of warhead unlikely to destroy meaningful amounts in anything less than one on one duels.

2 - EMP shorting the missiles out
Outside of Triple Ripple and Zizka we have not seen any attempt of using EMP but its also unknown if missiles are hardened. Recon probes definitely are not.

3 - blinding the sensors. This is the most probable thing to happen because blinding the passive scanners is easier than trying to get through EMP hardening or physical destruction. Passive scanners are far more sensitive to dirty nukes and if the missiles go active are simply easier to hit.
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Re: Proximity kills of incoming missiles via dirty nukes?
Post by vovchara   » Thu Sep 04, 2014 4:28 am

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kzt wrote:Though you do have to wonder how cladding a nuke in cobalt is supposed to do anything that will enhance its effects on enemy missiles when detonated in deep space. ;)


because.... of quantum. :lol:
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