new/old dead horse, futher beating requested

Weird Harold wrote:

Theemile wrote:While your points are all valid, they point back to the previous premise - do you even want to be giving Masada the SD to begin with?

Who ever suggested giving Masada a modern warship? Even The People's Republic wasn't that stupid -- the fact that Masada stole the ship from its real crew was unanticipated.

Manticore has been a bit more discriminating when doling out Military Assistance and with the exception of Erewhon has a spotless record of choosing wisely in how much assistance to provide -- whether materiel, training or personnel

With the exception of Erewhon??? Erehwhon provided blood and treasure, fighting at Manticore' side for nearly 10 years in the war against the Peeps. The fact that the relationship came unglued was the fault of the High Ridge Administration, not Ehrewhon, who quite understandably was open to a new defensive alliance that did not involve being swallowed by the League. While Erewhon was caught as much by surprise as everyone else by Thunderbolt, she much more accurately judged the nature of the new Havenite regime than Manticore did.

Don

n7axw wrote:With the exception of Erewhon???

Erewhon is the only Allie to sell Manticoran military tech outside of the Manticore Alliance. The reasons why that is so make the exception understandable, but it is still an exception.

n7axw wrote:

Weird Harold wrote:
Who ever suggested giving Masada a modern warship? Even The People's Republic wasn't that stupid -- the fact that Masada stole the ship from its real crew was unanticipated.

Manticore has been a bit more discriminating when doling out Military Assistance and with the exception of Erewhon has a spotless record of choosing wisely in how much assistance to provide -- whether materiel, training or personnel

With the exception of Erewhon??? Erehwhon provided blood and treasure, fighting at Manticore' side for nearly 10 years in the war against the Peeps. The fact that the relationship came unglued was the fault of the High Ridge Administration, not Ehrewhon, who quite understandably was open to a new defensive alliance that did not involve being swallowed by the League. While Erewhon was caught as much by surprise as everyone else by Thunderbolt, she much more accurately judged the nature of the new Havenite regime than Manticore did.

Don

I was under the impression Erewhon didn't exactly provide much in the way of naval personnel and ships, but more in the way of merchant ally.

Zakharra wrote:

n7axw wrote:
With the exception of Erewhon??? Erehwhon provided blood and treasure, fighting at Manticore' side for nearly 10 years in the war against the Peeps. The fact that the relationship came unglued was the fault of the High Ridge Administration, not Ehrewhon, who quite understandably was open to a new defensive alliance that did not involve being swallowed by the League. While Erewhon was caught as much by surprise as everyone else by Thunderbolt, she much more accurately judged the nature of the new Havenite regime than Manticore did.

Don

I was under the impression Erewhon didn't exactly provide much in the way of naval personnel and ships, but more in the way of merchant ally.

12 Erewhonese Dreadnaughts were in 8th fleet during Buttercup. They were the 3rd strongest member of the alliance after Grayson and one of only 4 which had wallers. Compared to Manticore, they didn't contribute much, but they didn't have as much to give.

But you are right, Erewhon is one to build relationships to get problems handled, rather than directly dirtying their hands over the issue.

The dead horse needs beating, because a lot of people think that for some reason these older ships would have no use, and should be scrapped.

There is nothing wrong with these ships. They won't be usable in combat against modern ships unless intelligent counter missile technologies are implemented (drone wall defenses) but at the very least they would make excellent orbital forts.

Older warships in the real world, as a general rule with some exceptions, are used until they are pretty much falling apart. There is no reason to believe that Manticore can't find some governments that would like a few of them, even if they are just going to be used as orbital forts. Beowulf and her colonies (if her colonies wish to assist) could provide training crews.

Look at the history of Aircraft carriers from WWII. A great many of them were shifted around from country to country as loaners and sales long, long after they were anything even resembling state of the art.

Military ships always retain value to a greater extent than civilian ships, because they are typically built to much higher standards. Even cheaply built ships like Liberty ships hold value long after one might expect them to be scrapped, if you know nothing about ships. The life expectancy of Liberty ships built in the 1940's was 5 years. They were used in vary large numbers for many decades. Now, 70 years later, there are still two operational today, and one museum ship that is non-operational.

I still think that these Sollie warships will find their way to verge worlds to be used as orbital forts and training ships. If you are a pirate and you know that a planet has a decrepit old SD in orbit which might still have active weapons and a skeleton crew able to operate them, you are probably going to try your best to find another planet to mess with.

After The SL falls apart, there is going to be chaos throughout the universe. There is no possible way this will be prevented. Putting one or two of these ships in orbit around a planet, even if they are no more than gun batteries and air traffic control centers is going to make a big difference as low-tech worlds consider warring against one another.

Think about Masada vs Grayson. Do you really think that the Graysons or the Masadans would have turned down a fully functional warship that was above their tech base, even if it was woefully out of date?

That's a big Hell No. Either of them would have happily taken in any sort of warship if it were given to them for free? The Masadans, being more offensive minded, would have used one to allow them to project more of their usable offensive power. The Graysons would have used one to tie into their defensive systems.

Remember also that the Masadans were able to fly and operate at a very limited level, a state of the art Peep battlecruiser. Very poorly, I might add, but they still could do it. At that time, Masadan naval experience seemed to be limited to piracy and merchant marine operation.

It just seems to me that anyone who considers these ships good only for scrap is completely in the dark about how much one of these ships, even in a severely degraded operational state, might mean to a verge planet with some modest industry and some veteran spacers in a post Solarian League universe.

Finally, I would like to make a note that the current daughter in law of Queen Elizabeth learned to fly a ship using virtual reality gear when she was in her early teens, in secret. If anyone tries to say those ships are useless in front of her, I bet she'll have something to say about it.

Even if all they do is sit in orbit around verge worlds as potential threats to potential aggressors, they will still be useful.

Cheopis wrote:The dead horse needs beating, because a lot of people think that for some reason these older ships would have no use, and should be scrapped.

There is nothing wrong with these ships. They won't be usable in combat against modern ships unless intelligent counter missile technologies are implemented (drone wall defenses) but at the very least they would make excellent orbital forts.

Older warships in the real world, as a general rule with some exceptions, are used until they are pretty much falling apart. There is no reason to believe that Manticore can't find some governments that would like a few of them, even if they are just going to be used as orbital forts. Beowulf and her colonies (if her colonies wish to assist) could provide training crews.

Look at the history of Aircraft carriers from WWII. A great many of them were shifted around from country to country as loaners and sales long, long after they were anything even resembling state of the art.

Military ships always retain value to a greater extent than civilian ships, because they are typically built to much higher standards. Even cheaply built ships like Liberty ships hold value long after one might expect them to be scrapped, if you know nothing about ships. The life expectancy of Liberty ships built in the 1940's was 5 years. They were used in vary large numbers for many decades. Now, 70 years later, there are still two operational today, and one museum ship that is non-operational.

I still think that these Sollie warships will find their way to verge worlds to be used as orbital forts and training ships. If you are a pirate and you know that a planet has a decrepit old SD in orbit which might still have active weapons and a skeleton crew able to operate them, you are probably going to try your best to find another planet to mess with.

After The SL falls apart, there is going to be chaos throughout the universe. There is no possible way this will be prevented. Putting one or two of these ships in orbit around a planet, even if they are no more than gun batteries and air traffic control centers is going to make a big difference as low-tech worlds consider warring against one another.
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Finally, I would like to make a note that the current daughter in law of Queen Elizabeth learned to fly a ship using virtual reality gear when she was in her early teens, in secret. If anyone tries to say those ships are useless in front of her, I bet she'll have something to say about it.

Even if all they do is sit in orbit around verge worlds as potential threats to potential aggressors, they will still be useful.

I will agree with you about all ships smaller than a BC, the SDs are a negative for any system that does not already have BC squadrons due to manning requirements. These ships would require a min of 4K+ personnel to be operated effectively, and cannot be operated properly in groups of less than 4. All that said if someone wants to pay Manticore scrap prices and bring a crew to take possession, they will probably be allowed to do so.

The reason the hose is dead is that we beat ourselves to a bloody draw over the issue, retire from the field, abandoning the poor nag in the middle. I am retired.

Don

I will agree with you about all ships smaller than a BC, the SDs are a negative for any system that does not already have BC squadrons due to manning requirements. These ships would require a min of 4K+ personnel to be operated effectively, and cannot be operated properly in groups of less than 4. All that said if someone wants to pay Manticore scrap prices and bring a crew to take possession, they will probably be allowed to do so.

That's why the scarecrow option has gotten so much attention. While it takes 4000 to run the things properly, it probably would only take 400 to run them on a skeleton crew basis. You couldn't fight them but the whole idea is to make it look like you could. The biggest problem is keeping it a secret. Their effectiveness would depend 100% on secrecy because if the warlord etc knew that there was only a skeleton crew on board, the SD's effectiveness would be zero.

biochem wrote:That's why the scarecrow option has gotten so much attention. While it takes 4000 to run the things properly, it probably would only take 400 to run them on a skeleton crew basis. You couldn't fight them but the whole idea is to make it look like you could. The biggest problem is keeping it a secret. Their effectiveness would depend 100% on secrecy because if the warlord etc knew that there was only a skeleton crew on board, the SD's effectiveness would be zero.

Not really. If you have maintained the reactors and impellers you can maneuver. Minimal maint will keep a lot of the other systems running when you don't often stress them It's like a russian tank, they were expected to last less than 500 hours in combat, but have lasted for decades when kept in storage and greased occasionally. And if I'm a jihadi driving a 2012 Toyota pickup truck with a DShK in the bed I DO NOT want to fight a T55, even if it is about as old as my grandfather.

The total crew that was involved in fighting the Bellerophon was less than 10, all the weapons were run by computer. If 4 guys on the Thunder had been a bit better trained they would have crushed Fearless.

If the ship had been manned by peep crew with the worst captain on active duty and the crew as a whole had gotten the worst scores in the fleet for effectiveness they still would have blow fearless into very small pieces on the first pass, the disparity in firepower was that great.

Remember that the greatest weapon in war is information. If you have an old decrepit SL SD in orbit around your planet, and there isn't clear intelligence to indicate that it's unable to fight, any raider or pirate is going to have to give consideration that it might be able to fight.

Manticore could rip the hyper drive out of these ships after delivering them to verge worlds, to make certain that they weren't used offensively.

To create a real world scenario, if you're thinking about breaking into two different houses, and you know the owners of one house have an old dog, and the owners of the other have no dog, you will probably try to break into the house with no dog if all other things are mostly equal.

As a raider, you have to think, is that SD in orbit able to wake up and bite you on the ass if you get too close, or is it toothless and nearly dead? Are you going to risk your ship(s) and crew to find out, or pick an easier target?

Sollie SD's won't have much utility against piracy outside the hyper limit because they are too slow, but raiders going after orbital or even planetary infrastructure in post-SL chaos will have to think twice if there's a SD in orbit.

Frontier fleet is going to scatter when the SL falls apart, and a lot of those ex-Frontier fleet crews are going to take up... alternate careers. If they want to keep those ships running they will need industrial infrastructure, and from what we've seen in the Honorverse, that's normally found in orbit around inhabited planets inside the hyper limit of stars.

Those SD's have tremendous value. Not monetary value, but favor value. Bluff value. Information warfare value. Simply giving away those ships after the SL starts to go belly-up will create huge goodwill for Manticore. Even if none of them ever fire a shot.