(SPOILERS) Too worried about waking up Dad?

evilauthor wrote:Given that people walk in and out of it every day...

Also I got the impression that using a city destroying nuke to take out the Temple did NOT require the nuke to be in the temple, either by going through to door or piercing the outer shell first. If that's true, then a contact or close proximity detonation will suffice to destroy the Temple and what's in its basement.

Let's try this again.

You asked why would anyone need to make a suicide run into the Temple, in response to David's comment about Merlin running in with a nuke strapped to his back.

The context of the discussion at the time is that Merlin isn't going to kill a whole bunch of people living outside the Temple just to get what's under Temple. If left with no other option, he's willing to do a suicide run and nuke the Temple, knowing that a relatively small and well targeted nuke will at least restrict the damage to Zion at large, regardless of what happens to everyone else inside the Temple. Merlin isn't going to be dropping a 100 megaton bomb on the outside of the Temple just to crack open the armored dome and scour its interior.

And so what if people walk in every day? As far as I know, no one has ever said that the Temple accesses are simply broad, straight thoroughfares that go directly into the heart of the Temple. Again, the Temple is built like a bunker. You can be sure that there are plenty of doglegs and armored panels disguised as walls to ensure that there is no direct access from the exterior to the interior.

Well, with Zion's climate, I would build a porch out front with offset doors to minimise the drafts, central heating notwithstanding. Can anyone say Narthex?

Dear Duckk and all,

The simple fact is we do not know what automatic defensive measures are incorporated into the temple. Dog legs, automatic blast doors, automatic lazer guns that destroy any nuclear device their sensors detect?

I agree with Duckk that to believe that this structure built after the war of the fallen has no such automatic defenses is stupid. Further any such attempted attack will wake up dad, and piss him off.

I think we will get more information in HFQ possibly from the agents within the temple from the Sisters of Saint Khody. This will allow Merlin et all to perhaps find a chink in the armor of the temple.

Also any such system will be well protected from hacking and any back doors locked. Langhorne's surviving Arch angles would be very paranoid that they may have missed someone as technically sophisticated as they with access to modern weapons.

Poker

You are assuming there are no automatic more offensive defenses as well. For example, disrupting the fission core of the warhead before detonation would severely degrade fission and might make the worst result a dirty bomb with limited effect.

Your assumption of ease may even be a good assumption, but what if you are wrong? Are you willing to gamble the race on it?

evilauthor wrote:

Duckk wrote:So the architect who made the Temple was paranoid to design it like a planetary defense bunker, but didn't feel like inconveniencing anyone either and so left the entrances completely wide open?

Given that people walk in and out of it every day...

Also I got the impression that using a city destroying nuke to take out the Temple did NOT require the nuke to be in the temple, either by going through to door or piercing the outer shell first. If that's true, then a contact or close proximity detonation will suffice to destroy the Temple and what's in its basement.

Randomiser wrote:Well, with Zion's climate, I would build a porch out front with offset doors to minimise the drafts, central heating notwithstanding. Can anyone say Narthex?

The Temple doesn't just have central heating. It has "magical" heating and cooling and air circulation. The text notes that the temperature inside is miraculously kept at a constant comfortable temperature. There is neither need nor desire to open it up to the outside. Besides, the temple was never intended to become the heart of a city or the target of pilgrimages. It was intended to be an isolated self-contained miraculous headquarters.

SWM wrote: The text notes that the temperature inside is miraculously kept at a constant comfortable temperature. There is neither need nor desire to open it up to the outside.

I recall exhaust vents at locations around the temple around which the poor of Zion huddle for warmth during the winter. That being the case, I infer that there must be intakes, as well, either dedicated-use ones as for the exhausts or through doors and other access points.

~Tonto

Hmm, this may lead to the idea of using poison gas in the intakes. Again automatic defenses are likely to be in place to combat just such an attack. Adolf Hitler's Fuhrer Bunker had the intakes high just because such an attack with a heavy than air gas was possible.

Poker

Tonto Silerheels wrote:SWM wrote: The text notes that the temperature inside is miraculously kept at a constant comfortable temperature. There is neither need nor desire to open it up to the outside.

I recall exhaust vents at locations around the temple around which the poor of Zion huddle for warmth during the winter. That being the case, I infer that there must be intakes, as well, either dedicated-use ones as for the exhausts or through doors and other access points.

~Tonto

jgnfld wrote:You are assuming there are no automatic more offensive defenses as well. For example, disrupting the fission core of the warhead before detonation would severely degrade fission and might make the worst result a dirty bomb with limited effect.

Your assumption of ease may even be a good assumption, but what if you are wrong? Are you willing to gamble the race on it?

I'm not assuming everything. I'm basing my conclusions on statements made by MERLIN about what's required to destroy the Temple. That is, he needs a nuke powerful enough to level most of Zion to ensure the Temple's destruction (including "Dad" in the basement). He HAS the capability to do so, either the actual nuke or the ability to make such a nuke, but he doesn't want to use it because of all the collateral damage.

If the technology existed to prevent such a nuke from going off (either by direct interference or just via detection and shooting), wouldn't Merlin have factored such into his estimations of what's required to destroy the Temple?

And how is the nuke to be detected again? Aside from antigravity, FTL, and some VERY tough materials tech, magitech seems to be very much absent from the Federation tech base. If a nuke is shielded enough to not leak any radiation (assuming it even has a fission core and doesn't use energy weapons tech to start a fusion reaction), how is a nuke supposed to be detected. We shield nukes today to make them safe to handle.

Merlin and the SNARCs don't get close to the Temple because they leak electronic noise, but electronic noise != nuke.

As for detonating the nuke inside the Temple rather than outside in order to limit collateral damage... I can't see it being limited all that much given the firepower we're talking about, especially since any description of the Temple will include the fact that it's armored inside as well as outside.

As for the Temple's doors being wide open, I got the impression that even when open in the dead of winter, the warm air stayed inside and the cold air stayed outside.

Edit: Hang on a sec. At the beginning of OAR, we follow Archbishop Dynnys as he enters the Temple through the front door. At no point is it ever described that he had to wait for the doors to be opened. In fact, it is described that the throngs of pilgrims and lesser priests present stepped out of his way, meaning constant traffic going in and out of the Temple. Closing the doors would clog up traffic for no good reason.

Of course it wasn't winter at the time, but who said a nuke attack HAD to be made in the dead of winter?

evilauthor wrote:And how is the nuke to be detected again? Aside from antigravity, FTL, and some VERY tough materials tech, magitech seems to be very much absent from the Federation tech base. If a nuke is shielded enough to not leak any radiation (assuming it even has a fission core and doesn't use energy weapons tech to start a fusion reaction), how is a nuke supposed to be detected. We shield nukes today to make them safe to handle.

Neutrons. Considering todays shielding tech we can't stop neutrons which makes detecting radioactive materials very easy. What the shielding does is to protect people from alpha, beta and gamma radiation.

Alpha radiation are stopped by an inch or 2 of air, beta radiation penetrates further and needs some heavier shielding. Beta are also responsible for Cherenkov radiation (blue glow) in the water surrounding reactor vessels. Gamma radiation are what most people think of when they talk about nukes, gamma radiation is highly ionizing which makes it Bad™ for living things or delicate electronics.

But since all radioactive materials decay they emit neutrons which can quite easily be detected even though all radiation is shielded.

or the still hypothetic gravitrons. the Fed tech level was very advanced, and you have to assume the temple security is handled at this level.

If you can read density of matter without having to weight it, the shield dont matter. Above a given density, this is almost surely radioactive. Fusion would need a powerfull ignitor, and we know from Merlin musings that high energy sources can be detected.

Joat42 wrote:

evilauthor wrote:And how is the nuke to be detected again? Aside from antigravity, FTL, and some VERY tough materials tech, magitech seems to be very much absent from the Federation tech base. If a nuke is shielded enough to not leak any radiation (assuming it even has a fission core and doesn't use energy weapons tech to start a fusion reaction), how is a nuke supposed to be detected. We shield nukes today to make them safe to handle.

Neutrons. Considering todays shielding tech we can't stop neutrons which makes detecting radioactive materials very easy. What the shielding does is to protect people from alpha, beta and gamma radiation.

Alpha radiation are stopped by an inch or 2 of air, beta radiation penetrates further and needs some heavier shielding. Beta are also responsible for Cherenkov radiation (blue glow) in the water surrounding reactor vessels. Gamma radiation are what most people think of when they talk about nukes, gamma radiation is highly ionizing which makes it Bad™ for living things or delicate electronics.

But since all radioactive materials decay they emit neutrons which can quite easily be detected even though all radiation is shielded.