(SPOILERS) Too worried about waking up Dad?

SWM wrote:

abrax894 wrote:Duckk, I wasn't directing that at you and I did say not everyone was guilty of this, but I HAVE seen it. I like the debates like this, but I hate coming across like I'm beating a dead horse. Again this was something I noticed, not even on comments I've left but in reading other people' posts. Drak, I'm sorry you feel that way, this wasn't meant to be personal.

Abrax, I haven't seen anyone posing only that argument. Everyone I have seen posting has posted other arguments in addition to "you'll wake up the OBS". In fact, most of the arguments people have made have had nothing to do with waking up the OBS. I think you are being oversensitive over the issue. People have given lots of reasons. The biggest one, which has been stated repeatedly by many people, is that Merlin won't do it because he doesn't need to; as long as there is no critical reason to do it, there is no reason to risk it, even if the risk is miniscule.

To be fair, almost all of us have included the argument that Merlin won't do it as long as he doesn't need to because he can't know what would happen if the OBS (or whatever) woke up. We've adduced other, practical objections as well --- the construction of the Temple, for example, in my own case when shooting down the KEW attack on Zion --- but it all comes back in the end to the fact that Merlin's limitations are forced upon him by the unknowns he faces, including what might wake up the OBS. If not for that threat, or the threat that something may be sleeping under the Temple, he could operate a lot more freely and openly. The fact that abrax has been using direct attacks on the OBS as his example doesn't mean that there aren't other possible tech uses which Merlin is refusing to apply for reasons other than fear of "waking up Dad" (like his refusal to slaughter fleets in job lots at sea and out of sight of land, making sure any survivors are dead before he leaves, for example).

I think his primary point is that he thinks those other possible applications should be considered and/or debated without someone dropping the "waking up Dad" thumb onto the scales. I agree with you that other arguments have been presented in virtually every case, but there has been at least a bit of "don't rock the boat" just to not be rocking the boat, if you see what I mean.

I think our beloved author has a decisive advantage here because he sets the perameters and knows what Paul Harvey would have called the rest of the story...

Well, David, I sincerely hope there is a bit more enlightenment for the rest of us in HFQ,

Oh by the way, is your working title going to be the title given to the published volume?

Don

Also an interesting point...

runsforcelery wrote:[And if it's game over for Charis --- and if Merlin and Nimue are hunted down and taken out ---

Does that mean that Safehold weapons technology has now advanced to the point that they could actually kill a PICA?

cralkhi wrote:Also an interesting point...

runsforcelery wrote:[And if it's game over for Charis --- and if Merlin and Nimue are hunted down and taken out ---

Does that mean that Safehold weapons technology has now advanced to the point that they could actually kill a PICA?

The OBS can take a PICA out and it's entirely possible the temple contains something that can take a PICA out but there is also a remote possibility there exists weapons out there from the war against Shan Wei etc.

runsforcelery wrote:To be fair, almost all of us have included the argument that Merlin won't do it as long as he doesn't need to because he can't know what would happen if the OBS (or whatever) woke up. We've adduced other, practical objections as well --- the construction of the Temple, for example, in my own case when shooting down the KEW attack on Zion --- but it all comes back in the end to the fact that Merlin's limitations are forced upon him by the unknowns he faces, including what might wake up the OBS. If not for that threat, or the threat that something may be sleeping under the Temple, he could operate a lot more freely and openly. The fact that abrax has been using direct attacks on the OBS as his example doesn't mean that there aren't other possible tech uses which Merlin is refusing to apply for reasons other than fear of "waking up Dad" (like his refusal to slaughter fleets in job lots at sea and out of sight of land, making sure any survivors are dead before he leaves, for example).

I think his primary point is that he thinks those other possible applications should be considered and/or debated without someone dropping the "waking up Dad" thumb onto the scales. I agree with you that other arguments have been presented in virtually every case, but there has been at least a bit of "don't rock the boat" just to not be rocking the boat, if you see what I mean.

Wish I could sum up my thoughts so well in two paragraphs, but yes, that is exactly what I was getting at.....

Duckk wrote:

Question: Why would MERLIN need to personally carry a nuke into the Temple? Or indeed, why would ANY human need to do so? Why not just load the nuke in a skimmer on autopilot (or hell, load a copy of a virtual personality) and turn it into an improvised cruise missile?

Because it'd bounce off the dome like a rubber ball?

What moron is going to program a skimmer to fly into the dome? It's not what's required to use a nuke and Federation programming is more than sophisticated enough to have a skimmer fly through the front door without making the guidance system sentient. Heck, we can do that TODAY with much more primitive technology than what Merlin has.

Although given the power of the nuke we're talking about, just landing on the dome for a contact explosion would suffice, which should also be easily doable. We KNOW Merlin has nukes that powerful (or can easily make them) and it's only his aversion to collateral damage and the desire not to provide more examples of "supernatural intervention" that really prevents him from using it.

But if he ever decides that he really needs to nuke Zion, then he has everything he needs to do it by remote. And unlike Kau-Yung who was constrained by the ORIGINAL plan of needing to keep Safehold low tech for longer than his life expectancy, Merlin's mission requires him to keep on existing to make sure humanity advances enough to defeat the Gbaba.

So the architect who made the Temple was paranoid to design it like a planetary defense bunker, but didn't feel like inconveniencing anyone either and so left the entrances completely wide open?

Duckk wrote:So the architect who made the Temple was paranoid to design it like a planetary defense bunker, but didn't feel like inconveniencing anyone either and so left the entrances completely wide open?

Given that people walk in and out of it every day...

Also I got the impression that using a city destroying nuke to take out the Temple did NOT require the nuke to be in the temple, either by going through to door or piercing the outer shell first. If that's true, then a contact or close proximity detonation will suffice to destroy the Temple and what's in its basement.

evilauthor wrote:

Duckk wrote:So the architect who made the Temple was paranoid to design it like a planetary defense bunker, but didn't feel like inconveniencing anyone either and so left the entrances completely wide open?

Given that people walk in and out of it every day...

Also I got the impression that using a city destroying nuke to take out the Temple did NOT require the nuke to be in the temple, either by going through to door or piercing the outer shell first. If that's true, then a contact or close proximity detonation will suffice to destroy the Temple and what's in its basement.

You love your Nukes Evil

Duckk wrote:So the architect who made the Temple was paranoid to design it like a planetary defense bunker, but didn't feel like inconveniencing anyone either and so left the entrances completely wide open?

Of course he did Duckk, the pizza delivery people have to be able to get in.
The actual defensive protocol is to stop the Avon lady from ringing the door bell. I'm sure I read that bit somewhere ....

(Apologies to anyone who is an Avon rep )