McQueen vs Pritchart

It is interesting that people are torn between the outcome of the Battle of Manticore. I often speculate what would have occurred differently and decisively for Haven, if McQueen would have been successful at taking the helm of Haven? I always maintained, that under McQueen, Haven may have gotten much better mileage out of Operation Beatrice. And not only because it may have happened sooner — therefore before the Manties deployed that God-awful weapons system — but because Esther McQueen understood tactics and strategy even better than Theisman, IMHO.

Hell, the epic battle that did not occur was the McQueen-Harrington dustup.

Let's call it The Thriller In The Manila folder.

You much too young, non-boxing fans might not get that last one.

I never get that far, because it's pretty nearly certain if McQueen's coup is successful, she never authorizes the assassination attempt on Elizabeth and Benjamin (she doesn't know about the plan, and would almost certainly be even more ideologically opposed to it than Pierre was if she did). Which means the Cromarty government presses the first war to Haven's surrender (which happens more quickly under McQueen because she has a much better grasp of military realities).

Because there's no High Ridge government
- the Lynx terminus is not discovered as quickly
- Manticore resolves the situation on and around Congo, almost certainly in a very different fashion than Victor Cachat & co. did (and Erewhon remains allied with Manticore)
- The Andies press their claims in Silesia openly, and some sort of reasonable resolution is reached

Hi Drothgery,

Kudos for such a succinct summary of an alternate series of decisions scenario.

L

drothgery wrote:I never get that far, because it's pretty nearly certain if McQueen's coup is successful, she never authorizes the assassination attempt on Elizabeth and Benjamin (she doesn't know about the plan, and would almost certainly be even more ideologically opposed to it than Pierre was if she did). Which means the Cromarty government presses the first war to Haven's surrender (which happens more quickly under McQueen because she has a much better grasp of military realities).

Because there's no High Ridge government
- the Lynx terminus is not discovered as quickly
- Manticore resolves the situation on and around Congo, almost certainly in a very different fashion than Victor Cachat & co. did (and Erewhon remains allied with Manticore)
- The Andies press their claims in Silesia openly, and some sort of reasonable resolution is reached

drothgery wrote:I never get that far, because it's pretty nearly certain if McQueen's coup is successful, she never authorizes the assassination attempt on Elizabeth and Benjamin (she doesn't know about the plan, and would almost certainly be even more ideologically opposed to it than Pierre was if she did). Which means the Cromarty government presses the first war to Haven's surrender (which happens more quickly under McQueen because she has a much better grasp of military realities).

Because there's no High Ridge government
- the Lynx terminus is not discovered as quickly
- Manticore resolves the situation on and around Congo, almost certainly in a very different fashion than Victor Cachat & co. did (and Erewhon remains allied with Manticore)
- The Andies press their claims in Silesia openly, and some sort of reasonable resolution is reached

I'm not sure about all of this... McQueen was good, to be sure. Hers was the vision that launched Icarus. But I think Theisman, Giscard and Tourville were all her peers both tacticly and strategically. She did give Hamish fits at Trevor's Star, but ultimately the Peeps lost Trevor's Star although it must be noted it was after she had been relieved.The thing is, as you read those stories, there are so many variables such as context, resource availability that it can be tough to say who is better than whom. The rap on McQueen was that she was so obviously ambitious that it made her hard to trust which of course drove St Just crazy. His decision to start putting a file together on her which her sourses reported as meaning that he was about to move against her led to her premature coup attempt and her undoing.

I think on the Havenite side, I give the gold to Theisman, given both his war record, his successful coup, and his role in the interim between the wars in rebuilding the RHN and restoring the Old Republic as well as being the author of both Thunderbolt and Beatrice.

As for there being no High Ridge government if the war had concluded successfully, I respond, oh really... You are presuming that Cromarty would have been able to hold his wartime coalition together in peacetime. Perhaps. But maybe not too. Remember that the crown had been working to get the power of the purse moved to the Commons from the Lords which could have put High Ridge in charge anyway as Cromarty's coalition in the Lords fell apart over the issue.

The other thing I want to put out there for consideration is that if the Lynx terminus is not discovered, the Talbot Cluster winds up League protectorates under the gentle stewardship of OFSand the trans-stellars.

Don

n7axw wrote:As for there being no High Ridge government if the war had concluded successfully, I respond, oh really... You are presuming that Cromarty would have been able to hold his wartime coalition together in peacetime. Perhaps. But maybe not too. Remember that the crown had been working to get the power of the purse moved to the Commons from the Lords which could have put High Ridge in charge anyway as Cromarty's coalition in the Lords fell apart over the issue.

I think Cromarty could almost certainly have held his majority together long enough to hold another election, at which point the San Martino peers would have given him a big enough majority in the Lords that he could live without the shakier independents. Whether he could have forced through the transfer of the power of the purse to the Commons is another matter.

n7axw wrote:The other thing I want to put out there for consideration is that if the Lynx terminus is not discovered, the Talbot Cluster winds up League protectorates under the gentle stewardship of OFSand the trans-stellars.

Oh, the Lynx terminus would have been discovered eventually; the math around the 7th terminus was out there pre-High Ridge. But probably not for another 5 or 10 years. Which is probably long before OFS was considering moving in on the Talbot Cluster.

cthia wrote:
Let's call it The Thriller In The Manila folder.

You much too young, non-boxing fans might not get that last one.

I'm not that old (I hope) and I'm not a boxing fan but even I know what that refers to. The Ali-Frazier fight that decided the rivalry once and for all.

Amaroq wrote:

cthia wrote:
Let's call it The Thriller In The Manila folder.

You much too young, non-boxing fans might not get that last one.

I'm not that old (I hope) and I'm not a boxing fan but even I know what that refers to. The Ali-Frazier fight that decided the rivalry once and for all.

Just can't get one over on a tac-witch.

n7axw wrote:The other thing I want to put out there for consideration is that if the Lynx terminus is not discovered, the Talbot Cluster winds up League protectorates under the gentle stewardship of OFSand the trans-stellars.

Don

That's tricky because much of the happenings in the Lynx neighborhood are the result of Mesa accelerating their plans due to the discovery of the Lynx Terminus. I think that the Talbot Cluster would have been stable as it was (for the most part) for at least another 5-10 years.

While Mcqueen had the military loyalty, the civilian side of the government would not have been so willing. I think there would have been a civil war had she succeeded in her coup, and that combined with Buttercup, would have rolled the peeps into nothingness.

n7axw wrote:...
His decision to start putting a file together on her which her sourses reported as meaning that he was about to move against her led to her premature coup attempt and her undoing.

I think on the Havenite side, I give the gold to Theisman, given both his war record, his successful coup, and his role in the interim between the wars in rebuilding the RHN and restoring the Old Republic as well as being the author of both Thunderbolt and Beatrice.

Her coup was only stopped because of the nuke, even with the premature launch of it. If it wasn't for that she may have pulled it off.
I don't know if she would have restored the old republic though, so in that case/sense Theisman takes the gold, but just.

drothgery wrote:

n7axw wrote:As for there being no High Ridge government if the war had concluded successfully, I respond, oh really... You are presuming that Cromarty would have been able to hold his wartime coalition together in peacetime. Perhaps. But maybe not too. Remember that the crown had been working to get the power of the purse moved to the Commons from the Lords which could have put High Ridge in charge anyway as Cromarty's coalition in the Lords fell apart over the issue.

I think Cromarty could almost certainly have held his majority together long enough to hold another election, at which point the San Martino peers would have given him a big enough majority in the Lords that he could live without the shakier independents. Whether he could have forced through the transfer of the power of the purse to the Commons is another matter.

n7axw wrote:The other thing I want to put out there for consideration is that if the Lynx terminus is not discovered, the Talbot Cluster winds up League protectorates under the gentle stewardship of OFSand the trans-stellars.

Oh, the Lynx terminus would have been discovered eventually; the math around the 7th terminus was out there pre-High Ridge. But probably not for another 5 or 10 years. Which is probably long before OFS was considering moving in on the Talbot Cluster.

Good point on holding together long enough to have an election and bring in the San Martino peers. I never thought of that.

Don