Constitutional Powers of Grayson

cthia wrote:

SWM wrote:Cthia, consider this: In the history of Grayson, there have been thousands of people who have made enormous contributions to the welfare of Grayson. But there have only been 76 new steadings created in the last thousand years.

You certainly have a point there SWM, however, how many of those people obtained financial success greatly beyond a Steadholder? I don't know if great economic success would matter (although my intuition says it would) but it is difficult to accept that a citizen — that rises to the top of the financial universe, say like a Grayson Hauptman, could be denied the inevitable. The Mayhew Restoration will open up many profitable financial opportunities for the average steader — steaders that may become considerably more affluent and economically powerful than their Steadholders. Economic power yields political power. One thing I do know, is the power of money.

I'm afraid you still don't understand the mindset. That comes from thinking of Grayson in terms of democracy. Grayson is not a democracy. It does not want to become a democracy. Even Benjamin does not intend it to become a democracy. Yes, he wants to give greater power to the Council of Steaders. But the Council of Steadholders is and will continue to be an aristocracy.

If rich Graysons, born or naturalized, want political power, they can join the Council of Steaders.

cthia wrote:But, a part of me considers "down the road" to a time when the Mayhew Restoration has brought to its bosom many foreigners who may become citizens. Not willing to give them a piece of the pie may invite rebellion. Wars. I'm not saying my thinking is right, yet it is how it "appears" to me. The Harrington Steading has opened the door. The precedent has been set.

In what way are foreign-born citizens of Grayson being denied slices of pie that are available to their counterparts born from established Grayson families? Furthermore IMHO, establishing specific foreigners-only steadings would surely be storing up trouble for the future? Yes, Benjamin wants those immigrants he's been welcoming via the Protectors Own to help push things in the direction he's aiming but I suspect he wants them to integrate into Grayson proper and not decide to live in their inward-looking ghettos?

SWM wrote:Part of the problem is probably understanding the mindset on Grayson. Grayson is not a democracy or republic. It isn't even like a European monarchy. I'm not sure there has ever been an equivalent in Earth history. It is a completely flat aristocracy--there is no hierarchy. Every new steadholder is equal to the others, and has no superior. It is a closed aristocracy; it is almost impossible for anyone not of the aristocracy to join it.

Bolding is mine.
this is technically incorrect. I feel that Grayson is closer to a mix of a aristocracy and and republic. The conclave of steaders are popular voted seats representing the "people" of each steading. This is seen in Ashes of Victory where Mueller is given funds to fill the war chests of politicians across the planet.
It actually mirrors the Star Kingdom of Manticore precisly in all respects, except, the Protector has more unilateral power then the monarch of Manticore.
As for making new steadings, it would have to be a very special offworlder to have another offworlder steading created, maybe Hamish, possibly Yu, considering he must be well known by now, but Honor was a unique case because things were in an uproar of jublience after the fighting and she saving the planet. Otherwise they need to be created with the approval for the Conclave.
And I would expect the origianl steading were based upon overall power of the steadholders at the time of the creation of the government.

Commodore Oakius wrote:

SWM wrote:
Part of the problem is probably understanding the mindset on Grayson. Grayson is not a democracy or republic. It isn't even like a European monarchy. I'm not sure there has ever been an equivalent in Earth history. It is a completely flat aristocracy--there is no hierarchy. Every new steadholder is equal to the others, and has no superior. It is a closed aristocracy; it is almost impossible for anyone not of the aristocracy to join it.

Bolding is mine.
this is technically incorrect. I feel that Grayson is closer to a mix of a aristocracy and and republic. The conclave of steaders are popular voted seats representing the "people" of each steading. This is seen in Ashes of Victory where Mueller is given funds to fill the war chests of politicians across the planet.
It actually mirrors the Star Kingdom of Manticore precisly in all respects, except, the Protector has more unilateral power then the monarch of Manticore.
As for making new steadings, it would have to be a very special offworlder to have another offworlder steading created, maybe Hamish, possibly Yu, considering he must be well known by now, but Honor was a unique case because things were in an uproar of jublience after the fighting and she saving the planet. Otherwise they need to be created with the approval for the Conclave.

Snipped and separated ...

Commodore Oakius wrote:
And I would expect the origianl steading were based upon overall power of the steadholders at the time of the creation of the government.

I appreciate the comment.

Overall power from where? Was it those who "funded," moreso, the trip to Shangri La? Was it the more medically inclined? The engineers who could keep the generation ship running? Originally appointed by Tester?

Grayson's original founding would make for excellent reading, sort of like Diane Duane's "Spock's World." Or better yet, in the spirit of the first of Kim Stanley Robinson's epic "Red, Green, Blue Mars."


I'd also like that foray into the Endicott System to include Masada as well. I'm even more at odds with Masada's Constitution. I know that Tester is suppose to be the head of Masada, but how Masada thinks a Tester would approve the crap they did is beyond me.

At any rate, did I miss a volume from RFC explaining all of this in more detail?

Commodore Oakius wrote:

SWM wrote:Part of the problem is probably understanding the mindset on Grayson. Grayson is not a democracy or republic. It isn't even like a European monarchy. I'm not sure there has ever been an equivalent in Earth history. It is a completely flat aristocracy--there is no hierarchy. Every new steadholder is equal to the others, and has no superior. It is a closed aristocracy; it is almost impossible for anyone not of the aristocracy to join it.

Bolding is mine.
this is technically incorrect. I feel that Grayson is closer to a mix of a aristocracy and and republic. The conclave of steaders are popular voted seats representing the "people" of each steading. This is seen in Ashes of Victory where Mueller is given funds to fill the war chests of politicians across the planet.
It actually mirrors the Star Kingdom of Manticore precisly in all respects, except, the Protector has more unilateral power then the monarch of Manticore.
As for making new steadings, it would have to be a very special offworlder to have another offworlder steading created, maybe Hamish, possibly Yu, considering he must be well known by now, but Honor was a unique case because things were in an uproar of jublience after the fighting and she saving the planet. Otherwise they need to be created with the approval for the Conclave.
And I would expect the origianl steading were based upon overall power of the steadholders at the time of the creation of the government.

You are correct that the Conclave of Steaders has (growing) political power. You must have missed the part where I specifically mentioned them. BUT, you are ignoring the fact that the Conclave of Steaders only has power on the global scale. Each Steadholder has absolute power over their local policies, as long as they do not conflict with the global policies. And the scope of global policies is limited; it cannot infringe too closely on the powers of the Steadholders. A steadholder has more direct power than Queen Elizabeth Winton--more than some dictators in history, in fact. At the global level, Grayson is moving toward democratic principles, but at the Steading level, Grayson is nowhere near a democracy. And creating a new Steading and new Steadholder is granting this same absolute authority to a new person.

I say again, this is not the kind of thing to be done simply to get fresh blood. It is not a title you give to someone simply because they have a lot of money. It is an enormously important decision, laden with ramifications for both the members of the Steading and the planet as a whole. The act of founding a new Steading and Steadholder is creating a new king, with personal power such as few people in history have had. This is not a democracy!

SWM wrote:A steadholder has more direct power than Queen Elizabeth Winton--more than some dictators in history, in fact. At the global level, Grayson is moving toward democratic principles, but at the Steading level, Grayson is nowhere near a democracy.

... and yet we know there are elections to chambers other than the global Chamber of Steaders.

Ashes of Victory :-
"In fact, the Sword required such disclosure for any election which crossed the borders of more than one steading"

A Rising Thunder :-

"I realize steadholders have the sort of absolute power you and I only fantasize about, but she still has her own Chamber of Steaders to deal with"

PalmerSperry wrote:

SWM wrote:A steadholder has more direct power than Queen Elizabeth Winton--more than some dictators in history, in fact. At the global level, Grayson is moving toward democratic principles, but at the Steading level, Grayson is nowhere near a democracy.

... and yet we know there are elections to chambers other than the global Chamber of Steaders.

Ashes of Victory :-
"In fact, the Sword required such disclosure for any election which crossed the borders of more than one steading"

A Rising Thunder :-

"I realize steadholders have the sort of absolute power you and I only fantasize about, but she still has her own Chamber of Steaders to deal with"

I fail to see how that changes what I wrote. Note the section in that last quote which I bolded. A Steadholder has absolute power. Yes, there are other elected officials. But this is not a democracy, and thinking of Steadholders as a status that rich people can aspire to is simply wrong.

SWM wrote:You are correct that the Conclave of Steaders has (growing) political power. You must have missed the part where I specifically mentioned them. BUT, you are ignoring the fact that the Conclave of Steaders only has power on the global scale. Each Steadholder has absolute power over their local policies, as long as they do not conflict with the global policies. And the scope of global policies is limited; it cannot infringe too closely on the powers of the Steadholders. A steadholder has more direct power than Queen Elizabeth Winton--more than some dictators in history, in fact. At the global level, Grayson is moving toward democratic principles, but at the Steading level, Grayson is nowhere near a democracy. And creating a new Steading and new Steadholder is granting this same absolute authority to a new person.

SNIP

This is not a democracy!

Sorry SWM, I did miss the fact that you mentioned them. Still can't find it but I am not doubting you did.
My argument is that they are like the MP's in the Star Kingdom.
The Steadholder, yes, do have absolute authority, over their Steading and Steaders only.
The creation of new Steadings must be approved by the Steadholders, so they can't just be handed out. Yes. Peerages by the Monarchy ar the same, since many are non-life long and cant be transffered to an heir, they have no say in the House of Lords. If the Queen created a permenant one, the House of Lords could still refuse to seat them, like they did to Honor. This has a similer effect as in the creation of a steading needing Steadholder approval.

Yes, it is not a pure democracy/republic. It also, is not a flat aristocracy. The fact that there is a
Conclave of Steaders is proof of that. It is similer to a parlamentry system, like England has, where the "lords" or steadholdrs are herditary, the Steaders or "commons" are voted on, the chancellor is first among equals, like the Prime Minister, though with less powers and influence then the prime misiter because the throne or the sword in Graysons case, has more power then the kings and queens of mondern day England.

SWM wrote:SNIP
and thinking of Steadholders as a status that rich people can aspire to is simply wrong.

This I agree with. Steadholders are not chosen based upon wealth or status.

cthia wrote:Overall power from where? Was it those who "funded," moreso, the trip to Shangri La? Was it the more medically inclined? The engineers who could keep the generation ship running? Originally appointed by Tester?

I always picture that it started out like a ranch. when the ranch grew in influence and money they bought mor land. People move on to the land and paid rent to the owners of the ranches and counted on their prtections. i would guess the first 5 were the biggest "ranches" at the time, maybe the only ones.
It's not far off from how feudlism worked. yo had a lord, a baron or count or earl, and paid him and he was suppose to protect you and help you.
Of course the Graysons are a bit more civilzed about it.

Commodore Oakius wrote:Sorry SWM, I did miss the fact that you mentioned them. Still can't find it but I am not doubting you did.
My argument is that they are like the MP's in the Star Kingdom.
The Steadholder, yes, do have absolute authority, over their Steading and Steaders only.
The creation of new Steadings must be approved by the Steadholders, so they can't just be handed out. Yes. Peerages by the Monarchy ar the same, since many are non-life long and cant be transffered to an heir, they have no say in the House of Lords. If the Queen created a permenant one, the House of Lords could still refuse to seat them, like they did to Honor. This has a similer effect as in the creation of a steading needing Steadholder approval.

Yes, it is not a pure democracy/republic. It also, is not a flat aristocracy. The fact that there is a
Conclave of Steaders is proof of that. It is similer to a parlamentry system, like England has, where the "lords" or steadholdrs are herditary, the Steaders or "commons" are voted on, the chancellor is first among equals, like the Prime Minister, though with less powers and influence then the prime misiter because the throne or the sword in Graysons case, has more power then the kings and queens of mondern day England.

I think you are misunderstanding what I was saying. The specific topic was naming people as Steadholders. In that context, Grayson is not a democracy, and should not be thought of as a democracy. The Steadholders are an aristocracy, and a flat aristocracy because there is no hierarchy; no Steadholder is beholden to any other, unlike European-style aristocracy. Every Steadholder is all-powerful within their own domain, like a king. Cthia suggested that it was not fair that people had little hope of becoming a Steadholder, no matter how rich or politically connected they are or how much they contribute to Grayson. I was trying to say that such thinking comes from thinking of Grayson as a democracy. "You can grow up to be anything you want to be." That simply is not true on Grayson. I suggested in previous posts that if Graysons, born or naturalized, wanted political power, they should run for the Conclave of Steaders instead. So basically, you are just agreeing with what I already said.

SWM wrote:I think you are misunderstanding what I was saying. The specific topic was naming people as Steadholders. In that context, Grayson is not a democracy, and should not be thought of as a democracy. The Steadholders are an aristocracy, and a flat aristocracy because there is no hierarchy; no Steadholder is beholden to any other, unlike European-style aristocracy. Every Steadholder is all-powerful within their own domain, like a king. Cthia suggested that it was not fair that people had little hope of becoming a Steadholder, no matter how rich or politically connected they are or how much they contribute to Grayson. I was trying to say that such thinking comes from thinking of Grayson as a democracy. "You can grow up to be anything you want to be." That simply is not true on Grayson. I suggested in previous posts that if Graysons, born or naturalized, wanted political power, they should run for the Conclave of Steaders instead. So basically, you are just agreeing with what I already said.

Ahhhh, I see. You are staying in the strict confines of the original topic while I was including the slight tangent that cropped up. I see.

You are right in you conclusions about the Steadholder being a strict aristocracy. Yes I was agreeing on that.
Somehow or another i was wrapped in the conversation about all of Grayson politically, not just the Steadholders.
Sorry.