new/old dead horse, futher beating requested

Hi Pldew,

Welcome to the forums if you haven't and enjoy your favorite cg beverage on the cg forum.

Most of the other posters have forgotten the BF energy weapons were close to the RMN's, ie no too bad, thus also worth salvaging, as are other things with a little thought.

Boot strapping Nuncio and the others most technically behind [which we don't know by name] is going to be an ongoing problem, but there are others like the RTU [Rembrandt, San Miguel, Prairie and Redoubt] plus others with hyper warships like Spindle etc, that are far closer to being up to SL tech levels; that they could make the transition far faster that some think.

Regarding maintenance issues, yes the SD's have redundant power, environmental units, etc; they're warships and were designed to last centuries which some have; but other posters have again forgotten that TF 496 had 3 repair ships, 22 store ships [probably included a few fusion reactors for the SD's], and 2 ammunition ships, which ought to mean they have the spare parts to last quite a while with normal usage, besides the evident capability to make new parts as needed.

Given the TQ was part of the verge until it joined the SKM, it had the verge attitude towards the SL and their neighbors, which included the fact darn few verge systems have SD's or even a BC, according to RFC.

If you were a verge system, thinking about raiding the TQ, which would deter you more; a few dozen RMN LAC's that are supposed to be "really really dangerous"; "trust me I'm the RMN but I'm going to be busy dealing with the SLN etc for a while so beware my LAC's for the next couple of years while I rebuild my annihilated space heavy industry and infrastructure", or 3 ex-BF SD's in system?

Which is why I've emphasized the scarecrow role, while the SD's also act as schools for lots of things and fabricators, hospitals, power operations, marine advanced drop training, etc.

While some have pointed out the BF SD's were up to RMN standards until about 2 decades ago, there are plenty of retired RMN personnel who are experienced and familiar with the 'old' RMN equipment, including all the old DN's and SD's still in service in 1920, when any waller was better than no waller, including Kumalo's flagship Hercules that's more than 2 decades old BTW, so tech's and engineers familiar with similar systems are in the Spindle system already, plus they know friends back in the SKM who'd be willing to teach, even without bonuses because they like sharing what they know.

Financially speaking, there's the third or half of the Lynx revenues reserved for the TQ, that's been building up since 1919, in 3-4 years at only M$1-10 B per day, that's a few trillion M$ before getting into current revenues, enough to pay bonuses for quite a few Manticoran 'experts' who may know the systems based on their comparability, but given the nature of prize crews etc, I expect some general familiarity with same generation SL systems, besides any additional experts Beowulf and the BSDF and the Maya sector and Admiral Rozsak can offer, plus the RHN that thought the SLN was the standard until the First Manticoran war all thanks to prolong, NTM the on board computers and their training programs others have pointed out.

Regarding POW trainers, after experiencing the BoS, and viewing the Filaretta debacle now known as Second Manticore, I suspect a few SLN POW's may begin to think the war may last a lot longer than they had previously thought, as in learning the GA potentially has more active SD's [including SDP's] than the SL [~720+ RHN SD's &SDP's +400 nearing commissioning plus 250+ GSN SD's & SDP's and 400+ RMN SD's and SDP's] before adding the 108 undamaged captured BF SD's, that some might be willing to earn money as POW's did in WW2 etc, being easily monitored for errors.

We don't know the SLN manning requirements, I don't think the peeps manning from EoH fits the SLN, but even a sixth of the crew means the BF SD's engineer staff would fully number only ~53,280 total, a figure much higher than we truly need but easily met between the older or retired RMN, RHN, BSDF, RTU and any SLN experts from Maya, again thanks to prolong, before finding room for TQ students.

The RMN had ~11 million at the beginning of HAE, so the whole total if the RMN bore it alone is less than one half of 1% of that figure when older SD's and DN's still dominated its wall.

So I think there are plenty of potential teachers were the RMN send out its own old SD's so the TQG can learn RMN systems from the beginning, which is what RFC has said.

We may finally find out in the next book, even if it awaits us in 2015.

L

pldew wrote:I am basing this on the captures in the Quadrant. It seems to me the particularly useful parts and subsystems to be salvaged off the ships would be the machine shop and fabrication units off the ships. What the Quadrant needs among many other things is the tools to make tools, and given the overall situation that would make the most sense.

I am happy that this old subject can still bring in so many comments. I think the use of SD's as SD's is a dead issue, but I still think that incorparating a stripped out SD with the LAC-base-in-a box, mentioned in passing in one of the later Honorverese novels would provide a number of comforts for an otherwise very spartan base. In an earlier such forum, I mentioned using captured SD's as "jeep carriers", and I realize that freighters would be better for this. My impression is that the "Battle of Beowulf" will be missles and LAC's and heavy Sollie causulties since they will not have capital ships to surrender to. Following this there will be a cry going out for LAC's and missles and a need to move them around.

CLACs are basically armored, barely-armed shells. I doubt that an SLN SD could fit more than a couple of LACs in their bay without significant restructuring of their hulls. IE, complete gutting.

As far as the small arms/armor, that's actually an area where the SLN is comparable to Manty equipment, given how often the Marines and Gendarmerie are used. Using it for short-term equipping of the Quadrant Guard is probably going to be a good idea.

Remember, there's nothing wrong with Sollies tech base, it's their tactical application of that tech that sucks. It's the exact opposite of Haven, really.

The scarecrow option does seem like a viable use of the SDs for the verge systems. Actually staffing the things up to combat levels is a complete waste of desperately needed manpower. But using the things as scarecrows would only require a skeleton crew and not a very talented one at that. But for the scarecrow option to be effective, the potential opponents (pirate fleets, would be warlords etc) would have to be unaware that the SDs are scarecrows. So that would mean that everyone involved would have to keep the whole operation a secret, which rules out the suggestion of both stripping the things and using them as scarecrows simultaneously.

Given that they have the full fleet databases, they might even be useful against the SL in a deception type of scenario. Change the transponder codes and names to ships not on the capture list, use imaging to fake up an admiral or two... Similar to what Honor and Co did on Hades. Given the level of stupidity exhibited by SL commanders to date, it has a decent chance of working.

It wouldn't be nearly as good as real ships of course, but the real ships are busy elsewhere and they don't have enough real ships to cover the verge.

biochem wrote:The scarecrow option does seem like a viable use of the SDs for the verge systems. Actually staffing the things up to combat levels is a complete waste of desperately needed manpower. But using the things as scarecrows would only require a skeleton crew and not a very talented one at that. But for the scarecrow option to be effective, the potential opponents (pirate fleets, would be warlords etc) would have to be unaware that the SDs are scarecrows. So that would mean that everyone involved would have to keep the whole operation a secret, which rules out the suggestion of both stripping the things and using them as scarecrows simultaneously.

Please explain how you can use your one or two SDs to act as effective deterrents. Unless you are requiring every incoming freighter to use one specific spot to translate to N-space, and are consistently escorting them from the hyper limit to the transshipment points (Which does require a bit more than just a skeleton crew), your scarecrows will be completely ineffective. Even if you do this, your operations outside the hyper limit aren't covered in the least; and once pirates realize that you are not running your SDs at combat readiness (something that is really easy to figure out with even cursory surveillance), their defensive value just evaporates.

biochem wrote:The scarecrow option does seem like a viable use of the SDs for the verge systems. Actually staffing the things up to combat levels is a complete waste of desperately needed manpower. But using the things as scarecrows would only require a skeleton crew and not a very talented one at that. But for the scarecrow option to be effective, the potential opponents (pirate fleets, would be warlords etc) would have to be unaware that the SDs are scarecrows. So that would mean that everyone involved would have to keep the whole operation a secret, which rules out the suggestion of both stripping the things and using them as scarecrows simultaneously.

You can fight the ship with a very small crew. There were under a dozen people involved in fighting the Bellerophon against a peep BC squadron. You would also need an engineering watch, but you could drop a huge percentage of the crew if you limit the scope of what the ship is to do.

You cannot keep the ship ready to fight with that sized crew, nor can you hope to do any sort of effective DC. However, if the ship is essentially tethered to the planet you can outsource routine maintenance to techs on the planet, which could keep the ship operational.

The E wrote:Please explain how you can use your one or two SDs to act as effective deterrents. Unless you are requiring every incoming freighter to use one specific spot to translate to N-space, and are consistently escorting them from the hyper limit to the transshipment points (Which does require a bit more than just a skeleton crew), your scarecrows will be completely ineffective. Even if you do this, your operations outside the hyper limit aren't covered in the least; and once pirates realize that you are not running your SDs at combat readiness (something that is really easy to figure out with even cursory surveillance), their defensive value just evaporates.

Who deeply cares about pirates raiding merchant ships away from your planets? It's certainly undesirable, but it's comparable to people spraying graffiti on bridges at night in terms of the level of concern.

And as I've discussed in great detail previously, it's really hard to secure both normal and hyperspace sides of a system against determined threats to shipping. You cant's do it without a squadron or more of hyper capable warships plus something to cover normal space.

Hi KZT,

Quite right as far as you go.

Up until Spindle the rest of humankind thought they were the best in the galaxy, to 99.9+% of the human settled systems, it's still better than anything they've got, or likely to get for quite some time, so simply scrapping them seems quite a waste from the verge perspective at a minimum.

I'm not sure how many pirates in their 50-60 KT "POS" ships would risk tangling with any SD 100+ times their mass and far more powerfully armed and armored, even if her missiles are obsolete by GA standards.

That's before discovering they have up to 464 pods [80% of 580 on 8.5 MT RMN SD's at BoMA] tractored to the hull...

By scarecrows, I mean their primary mission, in part because there are many training roles they can perform for the locals, so they will appear to be fully manned; from navigation without ever leaving the inner system since they're supposed to be seen, manning energy weapons which are very good by RMN standards thus immediately transferable to other more active warships [before getting into the hundreds of pods they can tractor to their hulls with modified F/C links 1 to a pod], small craft piloting and management from all the traffic to and from the planet etc [I've mentioned before I expect Montana's to be named after Ragnild Pavletic], Marine shipboard training, including counter grav drops etc, besides using the fabricators and workshops to supplement the system's own capability to meet critical demands or fashion what it needs without costly imports for infrastructure [again I suspect the SL's equipment to be very good without the latest RMN capabilities or more than enough for the TQ, besides the medical and power training others have pointed out.

I see them as generally in planetary orbit or on training maneuvers in the system, with plenty of small craft traffic, and enough people on board being trained and constantly practicing, to be effectively be near fully manned if not fully trained, to cope sufficiently with any sudden appearance of a pirate or two.

With 3 in each system, once the initial training period was complete, and all are at least adequately manned by locals, a few nearest the rest of the verge [only 1 per system] might go on a diplomatic port tour to prove they exist and are fully on duty to counter any propaganda that Spindle was a lie or trick etc, again as part of their scarecrow role, while the other 2 are busy in their home system churning out more trained spacers, pilots doctors, medics marines, fabricator and power tech's etc.

From there the potential for use as Trojan horses is another possibility regardless if they're never directly used by the RMN or GA.

A single ex-BF SD could carry almost as many marines as Terekhov took to Mobius, and the GA now has 108 untouched besides the 179 ex-FF ships to check out the most likely Mesa-tricked resistance movements [287 is probably more than needed], which could be jointly manned by the whole GA, possibly including a Meyers contingent as a peace keeping contingent, after Mike's agreement has been approved by Elisabeth and the GA.

So there's quite a bit of potential use remaining in them, if the TQG is willing, which I think they are, even if the governor and Kumalo have to pretend they didn't notice when the TQG took control of them.

L

kzt wrote:

biochem wrote:The scarecrow option does seem like a viable use of the SDs for the verge systems. Actually staffing the things up to combat levels is a complete waste of desperately needed manpower. But using the things as scarecrows would only require a skeleton crew and not a very talented one at that. But for the scarecrow option to be effective, the potential opponents (pirate fleets, would be warlords etc) would have to be unaware that the SDs are scarecrows. So that would mean that everyone involved would have to keep the whole operation a secret, which rules out the suggestion of both stripping the things and using them as scarecrows simultaneously.

You can fight the ship with a very small crew. There were under a dozen people involved in fighting the Bellerophon against a peep BC squadron. You would also need an engineering watch, but you could drop a huge percentage of the crew if you limit the scope of what the ship is to do.

You cannot keep the ship ready to fight with that sized crew, nor can you hope to do any sort of effective DC. However, if the ship is essentially tethered to the planet you can outsource routine maintenance to techs on the planet, which could keep the ship operational.

Hi Uroboros,

NIT: The GA CLAC's aren't really armored because they don't need to be, and aren't intended to go directly in harm's way.

RFC has discussed possible "Assault CLAC's" that are armored to stay closer to the wall, while other CLAC's are much bigger carry more and have more repair capability but OB eliminated this possibility for some time to come.

L

Uroboros wrote:CLACs are basically armored, barely-armed shells. I doubt that an SLN SD could fit more than a couple of LACs in their bay without significant restructuring of their hulls. IE, complete gutting.

As far as the small arms/armor, that's actually an area where the SLN is comparable to Manty equipment, given how often the Marines and Gendarmerie are used. Using it for short-term equipping of the Quadrant Guard is probably going to be a good idea.

Remember, there's nothing wrong with Sollies tech base, it's their tactical application of that tech that sucks. It's the exact opposite of Haven, really.

Hi Biochem,

I kind of combined my answer to you with KZT's above, but between the whole GA finding people to man the captured SLN warships ought be much easier than the RMN doing it alone, although given 20 million navy & marine veterans from the first Haven war, it really shouldn't be that hard for the RMN either.

L

biochem wrote:The scarecrow option does seem like a viable use of the SDs for the verge systems. Actually staffing the things up to combat levels is a complete waste of desperately needed manpower. But using the things as scarecrows would only require a skeleton crew and not a very talented one at that. But for the scarecrow option to be effective, the potential opponents (pirate fleets, would be warlords etc) would have to be unaware that the SDs are scarecrows. So that would mean that everyone involved would have to keep the whole operation a secret, which rules out the suggestion of both stripping the things and using them as scarecrows simultaneously.

Given that they have the full fleet databases, they might even be useful against the SL in a deception type of scenario. Change the transponder codes and names to ships not on the capture list, use imaging to fake up an admiral or two... Similar to what Honor and Co did on Hades. Given the level of stupidity exhibited by SL commanders to date, it has a decent chance of working.

It wouldn't be nearly as good as real ships of course, but the real ships are busy elsewhere and they don't have enough real ships to cover the verge.