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Re: Illogical decisions
by Hildum » Wed Aug 27, 2014 1:18 am
Hildum Captain (Junior Grade) Posts: 252 Joined: Wed Dec 07, 2011 11:15 pm	runsforcelery wrote: What makes you think he didn't do exactly that? It would have been the obvious question, but there is really not much value in the answer after 800 odd years. Any group that was planted needed to stay secret, and the events of the next hundred years would only demonstrate the need to really stay hidden. Even if Merlin could locate one of these groups, at the time he would not have been able to do much: "Just popping in to say hi, and I know about you secrets." would likely not get very far. He has to vet anybody he shares his knowledge with very carefully. As others have pointed out, it is a matter of priorities, and there is not a lot that another secret group could do for him, unless it was exceptionally well placed and capable (and he can trust it).
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Re: Illogical decisions
by Bruno Behrends » Wed Aug 27, 2014 1:36 am
Bruno Behrends Captain of the List Posts: 587 Joined: Mon Oct 19, 2009 11:33 am Location: Berlin	I would like to add the following: A literary universe is not a means in itself - it exists for the purpose of allowing a certain story to be told. Thus follows that the literary universe has its rules set up in a way which makes it possible for the story to unfold in the way its meant to unfold. Now one can of course rage against these rules and think them 'illogical'. I don't know how much sense that makes though. That's like saying 'I want to read a totally different story'. Well then: Go read a different story! DrakBibliophile wrote:One individual has been complaining that one of David Weber's characters (Merlin) has ignored/won't do things that the individual thinks are logical actions. I hope the following isn't taken as an attack on him or anybody else. It's just my thoughts on "logical or illogical decisions" of people and characters. First and foremost, many people see the actions of others as "illogical" because they operate on different assumptions than the other person. In any logical debate there are "premises" that the person based their arguments on. The problem is often that the other person may not accept the "premises" that the first person starts from. Even worse, in informal discussions, the premises may not be expressly stated and the person may not consciously realize what premises he is starting from. So another person operating with different premises, will find the statements as illogical. Of course, there's also the problem of "incomplete" information. IE we think that a person's actions are illogical because the other person knows something we don't. In addition, there's the problem that even intelligent people do stupid things. Sometimes the person realizes that "he did an idiot thing" but other times the person may try to blame others on his mistakes. In an article on another site, David Weber talked about a historical person who by all accounts was very smart but took actions that afterwards seem very stupid. David Weber said that if he were to base a character on this person, many of his readers would find the character unbelievable. Of course, people doing "idiot things" also involves the person's emotional state. Depressed people do idiot things because of their depression (I speak here from personal experience). Our emotional state strongly influences how we think so it's not surprising that we can make illogical decisions. To bring things back to the Safehold-universe, let's consider the situation at the time of Project Ark. Mankind had been fighting a losing war for its survival for about thirty years. That is not going to be a positive influence on how well people were thinking. For all of Nimue's life and military service, war was seen as being done to protect human life. While military personnel, in the past and currently, are painfully aware that their actions will cause the deaths of innocents on the "other side", Nimue's war was different. The Gbaba were aliens and at the time of Project Ark, no "innocent" Gbaba could be harmed by the Federation's actions. So here's Merlin carrying all the emotional baggage of the original Nimue involved in a war where no matter what he does, human lives will be lost. It is not surprising to me that Merlin may make less than logical decisions. He has never thought about "collateral damage" in times of war. Finally David Weber has said (in my words) that everybody in the Federation was slightly insane. This explains (but not excuses) the actions of Langhorne and the command staff. This also explains Merlin's less than rational feelings/thoughts when it comes to collateral damage.
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I would like to add the following:

A literary universe is not a means in itself - it exists for the purpose of allowing a certain story to be told.

Thus follows that the literary universe has its rules set up in a way which makes it possible for the story to unfold in the way its meant to unfold.

Now one can of course rage against these rules and think them 'illogical'. I don't know how much sense that makes though. That's like saying 'I want to read a totally different story'.

Well then: Go read a different story!

DrakBibliophile wrote:One individual has been complaining that one of David Weber's characters (Merlin) has ignored/won't do things that the individual thinks are logical actions.

I hope the following isn't taken as an attack on him or anybody else. It's just my thoughts on "logical or illogical decisions" of people and characters.

First and foremost, many people see the actions of others as "illogical" because they operate on different assumptions than the other person.

In any logical debate there are "premises" that the person based their arguments on. The problem is often that the other person may not accept the "premises" that the first person starts from. Even worse, in informal discussions, the premises may not be expressly stated and the person may not consciously realize what premises he is starting from. So another person operating with different premises, will find the statements as illogical.

Of course, there's also the problem of "incomplete" information. IE we think that a person's actions are illogical because the other person knows something we don't.

In addition, there's the problem that even intelligent people do stupid things. Sometimes the person realizes that "he did an idiot thing" but other times the person may try to blame others on his mistakes.

In an article on another site, David Weber talked about a historical person who by all accounts was very smart but took actions that afterwards seem very stupid. David Weber said that if he were to base a character on this person, many of his readers would find the character unbelievable.

Of course, people doing "idiot things" also involves the person's emotional state. Depressed people do idiot things because of their depression (I speak here from personal experience). Our emotional state strongly influences how we think so it's not surprising that we can make illogical decisions.

To bring things back to the Safehold-universe, let's consider the situation at the time of Project Ark. Mankind had been fighting a losing war for its survival for about thirty years. That is not going to be a positive influence on how well people were thinking.

For all of Nimue's life and military service, war was seen as being done to protect human life. While military personnel, in the past and currently, are painfully aware that their actions will cause the deaths of innocents on the "other side", Nimue's war was different. The Gbaba were aliens and at the time of Project Ark, no "innocent" Gbaba could be harmed by the Federation's actions.

So here's Merlin carrying all the emotional baggage of the original Nimue involved in a war where no matter what he does, human lives will be lost. It is not surprising to me that Merlin may make less than logical decisions. He has never thought about "collateral damage" in times of war.

Finally David Weber has said (in my words) that everybody in the Federation was slightly insane. This explains (but not excuses) the actions of Langhorne and the command staff. This also explains Merlin's less than rational feelings/thoughts when it comes to collateral damage.

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Illogical decisions