Battle of Manticore - am I the only one?

Not wanting to appear troll-like, I've hesitated on saying this. But after an impassioned speech by roseandheather in the Missing Scenes thread, I can't resist...

When the Battle of Manticore concluded, I was angry because I wanted Haven to win. With their survival at stake, they threw the dice, did everything right, and still lost. As far as I was concerned, they were the underdogs and they deserved to win.

After the Legislaturalists and the Committee, they pulled themselves out of a horrible hole by their own efforts. I didn't want to see Manticore conquer them. No matter how benign that rule would be, not matter how well-formed a new government Manticore created for Haven, it could never grant them the pride they can feel that they fixed their own problem.

Of course, thanks to Honor's desire to "give peace a chance" and the exposure of the Alignment's machinations, Manticore did not conquer Haven. But even with that, I still wish they'd won.

JohnS wrote:Not wanting to appear troll-like, I've hesitated on saying this. But after an impassioned speech by roseandheather in the Missing Scenes thread, I can't resist...

When the Battle of Manticore concluded, I was angry because I wanted Haven to win. With their survival at stake, they threw the dice, did everything right, and still lost. As far as I was concerned, they were the underdogs and they deserved to win.

After the Legislaturalists and the Committee, they pulled themselves out of a horrible hole by their own efforts. I didn't want to see Manticore conquer them. No matter how benign that rule would be, not matter how well-formed a new government Manticore created for Haven, it could never grant them the pride they can feel that they fixed their own problem.

Of course, thanks to Honor's desire to "give peace a chance" and the exposure of the Alignment's machinations, Manticore did not conquer Haven. But even with that, I still wish they'd won.

Believe it or not, a part of me is with you. And given that I am the biggest Havenite fangirl on this board - sweet Tester, my signature is "I serve at the pleasure of President Pritchart" - I think everyone can understand why.

But remember this; Haven gutted Manticore's wall of battle. Gutted it. If they'd had enough left to conquer Haven, Elizabeth would have driven straight for the home system's orbitals. The whole reason Honor was able to "give peace a chance" was because Manticore literally did not have enough ships of the wall to force a surrender.

And in that sense, Beatrice did do exactly what it was supposed to do. It put Manticore in a position that made it impossible for them to strike back at Haven, at least in the short term - and that would have bought them time. Yes, Manticore could have rebuilt - but so could Haven have.

And - listen to me, here, because this is important - Manticore and Haven need each other, and I don't just mean as military allies. Elizabeth needed to learn that Haven was not the enemy. She needed to take that stuffed-and-mounted grudge down off the wall, because until she did, she could never quite be the ruler Manticore deserved. Eloise had learned that lesson earlier; Elizabeth had not.

They needed to forgive each other and bind together, and what's more, they deserve to. Mesa manipulated both of them into war. Don't you think they both deserve a chance to take the fight to the guys who caused all that loss, all that grief, side by side? What better kick in the teeth could Haven and Manticore possibly give Mesa than to take the shooting war straight to them, the ultimate spit in the eye to those who had turned them against each other in the first place?

The Republic of Haven was forged in the crucible of war, but it must be tempered in the waters of peace, or it would never stand. Haven needed the war, because it put Thomas Theisman, Eloise Pritchart, Javier Giscard, and Lester Tourville in a place where they could set their nation right. But it needs the peace just as badly, because a nation in the heart of the flames cannot survive for long. Now Haven has a chance to grow in peace what was born in war.

So yes, a part of me wishes Haven had won, because Haven was in the right. Haven was the one attacked, not the one who did the attacking, and Manticore, for all its virtues, was in the wrong.

But what grew out of the ashes is the Grand Alliance, and I cannot, I will not, be sorry for that. Fire kills, but it is also the crucible of rebirth. And in this fire, both Manticore and my Haven were reborn. Javier Giscard and millions of others paid the ultimate price for that rebirth - but I cannot imagine that they would not do it all over again, and gladly, to see Manticore and Haven side by side at last.

roseandheather wrote:

JohnS wrote:
Not wanting to appear troll-like, I've hesitated on saying this. But after an impassioned speech by roseandheather in the Missing Scenes thread, I can't resist...

When the Battle of Manticore concluded, I was angry because I wanted Haven to win. With their survival at stake, they threw the dice, did everything right, and still lost. As far as I was concerned, they were the underdogs and they deserved to win.

After the Legislaturalists and the Committee, they pulled themselves out of a horrible hole by their own efforts. I didn't want to see Manticore conquer them. No matter how benign that rule would be, not matter how well-formed a new government Manticore created for Haven, it could never grant them the pride they can feel that they fixed their own problem.

Of course, thanks to Honor's desire to "give peace a chance" and the exposure of the Alignment's machinations, Manticore did not conquer Haven. But even with that, I still wish they'd won.

Believe it or not, a part of me is with you. And given that I am the biggest Havenite fangirl on this board - sweet Tester, my signature is "I serve at the pleasure of President Pritchart" - I think everyone can understand why.

But remember this; Haven gutted Manticore's wall of battle. Gutted it. If they'd had enough left to conquer Haven, Elizabeth would have driven straight for the home system's orbitals. The whole reason Honor was able to "give peace a chance" was because Manticore literally did not have enough ships of the wall to force a surrender.

And in that sense, Beatrice did do exactly what it was supposed to do. It put Manticore in a position that made it impossible for them to strike back at Haven, at least in the short term - and that would have bought them time. Yes, Manticore could have rebuilt - but so could Haven have.

And - listen to me, here, because this is important - Manticore and Haven need each other, and I don't just mean as military allies. Elizabeth needed to learn that Haven was not the enemy. She needed to take that stuffed-and-mounted grudge down off the wall, because until she did, she could never quite be the ruler Manticore deserved. Eloise had learned that lesson earlier; Elizabeth had not.

They needed to forgive each other and bind together, and what's more, they deserve to. Mesa manipulated both of them into war. Don't you think they both deserve a chance to take the fight to the guys who caused all that loss, all that grief, side by side? What better kick in the teeth could Haven and Manticore possibly give Mesa than to take the shooting war straight to them, the ultimate spit in the eye to those who had turned them against each other in the first place?

The Republic of Haven was forged in the crucible of war, but it must be tempered in the waters of peace, or it would never stand. Haven needed the war, because it put Thomas Theisman, Eloise Pritchart, Javier Giscard, and Lester Tourville in a place where they could set their nation right. But it needs the peace just as badly, because a nation in the heart of the flames cannot survive for long. Now Haven has a chance to grow in peace what was born in war.

So yes, a part of me wishes Haven had won, because Haven was in the right. Haven was the one attacked, not the one who did the attacking, and Manticore, for all its virtues, was in the wrong.

But what grew out of the ashes is the Grand Alliance, and I cannot, I will not, be sorry for that. Fire kills, but it is also the crucible of rebirth. And in this fire, both Manticore and my Haven were reborn. Javier Giscard and millions of others paid the ultimate price for that rebirth - but I cannot imagine that they would not do it all over again, and gladly, to see Manticore and Haven side by side at last.

Well spoken Rose. Sounded like a Presidential address, part of it, however, I think both of you are suffering from a version of the Stockholm Syndrome.

To JohnS:
But Haven did win! Perhaps not the battle, but certainly the war. Manticore and Haven both won - the war against each other and the machinations and manipulations of the MAlign. And believe you me, the war is most important. Haven fan or Manticore fan or 50/50, we all won. Much To The Chagrin And Health Of The MAlign!

Sometimes the best of both worlds and the lesser of two evils are one and the same and so damn sweet.


.

I wasn't angry at all. Despite my respect for the new Havenite regime, they didn't deserve to win. Why? Pritchart used the war to force a political agenda. It might have been an agenda that I agreed with (staying in power, God knows what Giancola's crowd would have done!) but it cost millions of lives. Not only that, she didn't back down when she learned how wrong she was. She tried to sue for peace, but that's not quite the same thing.

Prichart shot first. Manticore may have been antagonizing the decision for some time prior, but Manticore's High Ridge government was already well past the tipping point. Weather she knew that or not is debatable, but all she had to do was wait.

Then again, hindsight is 20/20. I think it worked out pretty well for all involved... minus all those untold thousands of spacers floating in the void.

roseandheather wrote:So yes, a part of me wishes Haven had won, because Haven was in the right. Haven was the one attacked, not the one who did the attacking, and Manticore, for all its virtues, was in the wrong.

Is this part referring to Manticore breaking off the peace talks and attacking Lovat? I think that's what you're referring to here but I'm not certain.

Amaroq wrote:

roseandheather wrote:So yes, a part of me wishes Haven had won, because Haven was in the right. Haven was the one attacked, not the one who did the attacking, and Manticore, for all its virtues, was in the wrong.

Is this part referring to Manticore breaking off the peace talks and attacking Lovat? I think that's what you're referring to here but I'm not certain.

Yes, that's what I was referring to. (Though I may not be entirely rational on that subject. I have.... issues regarding That Place.)

roseandheather wrote:
Yes, that's what I was referring to. (Though I may not be entirely rational on that subject. I have.... issues regarding That Place.)

Understandable. Things are never clear-cut especially during a war. Manticore had reasons for stopping the proposed summit that were justifiable from their end but not so much from the Havenite perspective. Mesa played those assassination cards perfectly. If anything, I would say that both Manticore and Haven were in the right (about different things) and that the MAlign was in the wrong. That might make it easier to swallow.

Amaroq wrote:

roseandheather wrote:
Yes, that's what I was referring to. (Though I may not be entirely rational on that subject. I have.... issues regarding That Place.)

Understandable. Things are never clear-cut especially during a war. Manticore had reasons for stopping the proposed summit that were justifiable from their end but not so much from the Havenite perspective. Mesa played those assassination cards perfectly. If anything, I would say that both Manticore and Haven were in the right (about different things) and that the MAlign was in the wrong. That might make it easier to swallow.

Honestly? It's the only thing that makes me able to swallow it at all. If I didn't know, beyond the shadow of a doubt, that Elizabeth had every reason in the world to believe as she did because the MAlign had ensured she did, I suspect I would have turned against Manticore completely - or at least against its queen.

But she did, and so I could only sit and watch and cry my heart out as two (actually three, but I class Grayson in with Manticore for this) nations I truly loved found themselves on a collision course they couldn't stop.

But I will admit that a small part of me has never, and will never, forgive Elizabeth, Honor, Hamish, Caparelli, and RFC for The Event of Which We Do Not Speak. I can't make that part of me go away, and I don't think I ever will.

Amaroq wrote:

roseandheather wrote:
Yes, that's what I was referring to. (Though I may not be entirely rational on that subject. I have.... issues regarding That Place.)

Understandable. Things are never clear-cut especially during a war. Manticore had reasons for stopping the proposed summit that were justifiable from their end but not so much from the Havenite perspective. Mesa played those assassination cards perfectly. If anything, I would say that both Manticore and Haven were in the right (about different things) and that the MAlign was in the wrong. That might make it easier to swallow.

I disageee, respectfully Miladies, with the both of you. You see, for me, the blame falls on Haven because Eloise was the first to get wind of something afoot when she found out about the forged correspondence. She should have come clean much sooner and let the chips fall where they may, and for a second, I thought it would be a deal breaker and that Elizabeth would explode. Elizabeth had to swallow a huge built-up balloon payment of anger on that one! I'm tryin' ta told ya!!

Elizabeth didn't say it, but it required no empathic sense for me to hear it ...

"What?! ... You bitch!"

Please forgive my language Miladies, but I'm just sayin'.

my opinions on where the blame lay does put me in Havenite corner, seeing that:
first - Elizabeth who at the time had a stable political entity refused to do anything to shake it by directly and publicaly confronting High ridge government despite all of it's corruption and deficiencies.
second - Economical reasons aside, Beth refused (not could not, refused) to control her temper and thus gave her opposition a common enemy to rally against, and thus slowed down/prevented altogether the inevitable fallout that the differences in political doctrines would have caused.
third - Assassination attempt on Honor during wartime makes sense from Havenite perspective. The other two cases do not. But on the basis of one case in three, and Beth's unreasoning hatred and grudge, no one in Manticore ever once stopped to consider that the prime suspect for the other two Assassinations - Mesa/Manpower - does have some pretty good/compelling reasons to want to kill Honor - Strike against her beowulfan family, and especially Jacques; Casimir raid; Anti-slavery operations doing WoH; and final, more meta reason but just as compelling - MAnticore and RoH are both strongly anti-slavery oriented, so Manpower does profit with them fighting amongst themselves by the simple point that neither combatant has resources to spare for anti-slavery operations.