Chain of Command in the Honorverse

Ok so I was re-reading On Basilisk Station over the weekend (hadn't read it in a while) and came up against something that confused me and wanted to get your opinions or even a little infodump from Mr. Weber.

In OBS they mention the following:

"They'd wanted the military ministry, and Duke Allen had been forced to buy them off by naming Sir Edward Janacek First Lord of the Admiralty, the civilian head of Honor's own service under the Minister of War."

OK so according to this then the highest civilian in charge of the military (under the Queen as Commander in Chief)is The Minister of War under which should be the

First Lord of the Admiralty (Civilian Head of the Navy)
Civilian Head of the Army (whatever he or she is called)

Under them there should be some kind of committee that includes the professional head of the services (in the US its the Joint Chiefs of Staff and in the UK from which the series draws from its called the Chiefs of Staff Committee) Army, Navy & maybe the Commandant of Marines (depends in the US the Commandant is part of the JCOS and in the UK The Commandant General isn't)


But later (maybe a retcon)The First Lord of the Admiralty seems to act with the position and authority of the Minister of War. For example in the meeting after the Yawata Strike he is seeing answering for all military damage in the system, granted as First Lord he would be the best person to give all the damage aside from Caparelli but that king of report in the UK or US would be given by the Minister or Secretary of Defense.

Also when they created the government in the Talbot Quadrant a War Ministry was created which would seem to indicate that one exist in the Old Kingdom.

* Sorry threw me for a loop and thought I would seek the thoughts of members with more military background and more Parliament style governments as they are a bit different from US Gov that I kinda understand (aside from all the departments that seem to do the same thing but that's another post for a different site)

csantana183 wrote:Ok so I was re-reading On Basilisk Station over the weekend (hadn't read it in a while) and came up against something that confused me and wanted to get your opinions or even a little infodump from Mr. Weber.

In OBS they mention the following:

"They'd wanted the military ministry, and Duke Allen had been forced to buy them off by naming Sir Edward Janacek First Lord of the Admiralty, the civilian head of Honor's own service under the Minister of War."

OK so according to this then the highest civilian in charge of the military (under the Queen as Commander in Chief)is The Minister of War under which should be the

First Lord of the Admiralty (Civilian Head of the Navy)
Civilian Head of the Army (whatever he or she is called)

Under them there should be some kind of committee that includes the professional head of the services (in the US its the Joint Chiefs of Staff and in the UK from which the series draws from its called the Chiefs of Staff Committee) Army, Navy & maybe the Commandant of Marines (depends in the US the Commandant is part of the JCOS and in the UK The Commandant General isn't)


But later (maybe a retcon)The First Lord of the Admiralty seems to act with the position and authority of the Minister of War. For example in the meeting after the Yawata Strike he is seeing answering for all military damage in the system, granted as First Lord he would be the best person to give all the damage aside from Caparelli but that king of report in the UK or US would be given by the Minister or Secretary of Defense.

Also when they created the government in the Talbot Quadrant a War Ministry was created which would seem to indicate that one exist in the Old Kingdom.

* Sorry threw me for a loop and thought I would seek the thoughts of members with more military background and more Parliament style governments as they are a bit different from US Gov that I kinda understand (aside from all the departments that seem to do the same thing but that's another post for a different site)

I think the key here is that the Minister of War is in charge of all the Kingdom's armed forces, including the Navy, the Marines, and the Army. The reason the First Lord of the Admiralty seems to act like the Minister of War in later books is presumably because this is a naval war, whether against Haven or the Solarian League or Mesa, and I'm guessing that at least the guy from the Grantville government has enough sense not to meddle and to sit back and let the professionals do their job. The MoW's chief role would have been offscreen, dealing with the garrisoning of Masada, etc.

roseandheather wrote:

csantana183 wrote:Ok so I was re-reading On Basilisk Station over the weekend (hadn't read it in a while) and came up against something that confused me and wanted to get your opinions or even a little infodump from Mr. Weber.

In OBS they mention the following:

"They'd wanted the military ministry, and Duke Allen had been forced to buy them off by naming Sir Edward Janacek First Lord of the Admiralty, the civilian head of Honor's own service under the Minister of War."

OK so according to this then the highest civilian in charge of the military (under the Queen as Commander in Chief)is The Minister of War under which should be the

First Lord of the Admiralty (Civilian Head of the Navy)
Civilian Head of the Army (whatever he or she is called)

Under them there should be some kind of committee that includes the professional head of the services (in the US its the Joint Chiefs of Staff and in the UK from which the series draws from its called the Chiefs of Staff Committee) Army, Navy & maybe the Commandant of Marines (depends in the US the Commandant is part of the JCOS and in the UK The Commandant General isn't)


But later (maybe a retcon)The First Lord of the Admiralty seems to act with the position and authority of the Minister of War. For example in the meeting after the Yawata Strike he is seeing answering for all military damage in the system, granted as First Lord he would be the best person to give all the damage aside from Caparelli but that king of report in the UK or US would be given by the Minister or Secretary of Defense.

Also when they created the government in the Talbot Quadrant a War Ministry was created which would seem to indicate that one exist in the Old Kingdom.

* Sorry threw me for a loop and thought I would seek the thoughts of members with more military background and more Parliament style governments as they are a bit different from US Gov that I kinda understand (aside from all the departments that seem to do the same thing but that's another post for a different site)

I think the key here is that the Minister of War is in charge of all the Kingdom's armed forces, including the Navy, the Marines, and the Army. The reason the First Lord of the Admiralty seems to act like the Minister of War in later books is presumably because this is a naval war, whether against Haven or the Solarian League or Mesa, and I'm guessing that at least the guy from the Grantville government has enough sense not to meddle and to sit back and let the professionals do their job. The MoW's chief role would have been offscreen, dealing with the garrisoning of Masada, etc.

Minister of War is a title that has been dropped, I think. House of Steel has organizational charts for both the government and the navy, and MoW isn't listed in either. Now, I wasn't involved with any of that, and it's definitely not a main interest of mine in BuNine (obviously, I only concern myself with the ships), so I don't really know what's up with the charts, but here's a basic rundown:

Under the Monarch are the Legislative (Parliament), Executive (Royal Council), and Judicial (Queen's Bench) branches of the government. First Lord of the Admiralty falls under the Executive branch.

Under First Lord of the Admiralty are First Space Lord, Second Lord of the Admiralty, and Third Lord of the Admiralty. Second Space Lord reports to First Space Lord, Third and Fourth Space Lords report to Second Lord of the Admiralty, and Fifth, Sixth, and Seventh Space Lords report to the Third Lord of the Admiralty.

While I can't say for sure, it does appear that there may have been some retconning involved.

Ok see and that is what confuses me because in both the UK and the US the level That Hamish Alexander (in The US would be the secretary of the Navy) has aren't Cabinet Level Posts and while they do obviously answer to the Prime Minister/President they aren't involve in high level meetings like that without a specific invitation and don't speak above their bosses.

Meaning that legally he can't sit back and let anyone do anything because if they do something illegal or immoral for that matter he would be as responsible as they are.

For example the budget for the DOD and MOD is totally the responsibility of in the case of the US to the Secretary of Defense and in the UK the Minister of Defense. While they would undoubtedly listen to their military professionals (if they are smart anyway, history is full of ones that didn't) they hold ultimate authority and responsibilities for the services.

But Jacneck, Baroness Morncreek and Alexander whoever when speaking to the Prime Minister or the Queen are acting like they hold ultimate authority for their service; which unless something has change or been retcon they don't.

The Ministry of War as you describe him is only for the Army and that's not how he was written in OBS. The role you describe as garrisoning Masada would be whoever is the civilian head of the Army or in other words White Haven's counterpart for the Army.

Thanks MaxxQ; I am thinking that's most likely what happened and as Roseandheather we just haven't seen whoever the Army head is as there hasn't been a need to.

* Just wanted to see if anyone had seen anything that has been changed or I missed somewhere.

csantana183 wrote:Ok see and that is what confuses me because in both the UK and the US the level That Hamish Alexander (in The US would be the secretary of the Navy) has aren't Cabinet Level Posts and while they do obviously answer to the Prime Minister/President they aren't involve in high level meetings like that without a specific invitation and don't speak above their bosses.

At least in the US, SecNav was a cabinet-level post before the creation of a unified DoD. And in the Honorverse, the Navy's role is going to be very, very different than the Army's (and a lot more important to national defense).

Exactly Drothgery I think this is just a small continuity error between the first novel and the subsequent ones.

In the original there was a Ministry of War under which both the navy and all other services fell in and answered to. But later and more consistent with Napoleonic era Mr. Weber moved the First Lord of the Admiralty to be the top position and with no other level above it. Also would explain why First Lord of the Admiralty sits on a Cabinet meeting since he has no other minister above him.

drothgery wrote:At least in the US, SecNav was a cabinet-level post before the creation of a unified DoD. And in the Honorverse, the Navy's role is going to be very, very different than the Army's (and a lot more important to national defense).

And prior to the creation of the unified Ministry of Defence in 1964, the First Lord of the Admiralty was a cabinet minister in the British government.

I think that the key to understanding this is to remember that the First Lord is civilian and that does seem to be a cabinet level position. First Space Lord and the other Lords of the admiralty are all militarty positions divided according to their areas of responsibility, ONI, Buships, BuWeap, BuPers and so on. The First Space Lord is senior and is accountable to the First Lord who in turn serves as the navy's interface with the government.

In actuality, the system seems to function more informally with Capprelli, Givens etc also present on a fairly regular basis.

Don

In the United States the SecNav is a lower ranking member of the cabinet IIRC the top members of the cabinet are SecState, SecDef, SecTres, AttGen. Also the pecking order of the service secretaries are SecArmy, SecNav and SecAF