new/old dead horse, futher beating requested

Let's take an example that doesn't involve SDs. Assume you've got a couple of hundred Glock 22s (or maybe 23 - the one that many police departments in the US use) and a few hundred thousand rounds of ammunition.

Now assume your time machine drops them into the US at about 1776. Those suckers would blow away the Redcoats. You might lose a few people because muskets at that time had longer range, but once they got into range, they would be dead.

Nobody in that time frame could maintain them, nobody in that time frame could build them, nobody in that time frame could even make the ammunition.

What happens once they're gone?

A lot more redcoats get buried, the bill of rights gets ratified, maybe the Statue of Liberty never gets built as the French are not needed as much and the relationship does not develop.

JohnRoth wrote:Let's take an example that doesn't involve SDs. Assume you've got a couple of hundred Glock 22s (or maybe 23 - the one that many police departments in the US use) and a few hundred thousand rounds of ammunition.

Now assume your time machine drops them into the US at about 1776. Those suckers would blow away the Redcoats. You might lose a few people because muskets at that time had longer range, but once they got into range, they would be dead.

Nobody in that time frame could maintain them, nobody in that time frame could build them, nobody in that time frame could even make the ammunition.

What happens once they're gone?

n7axw wrote:As for the snobbery thing, the comment is not something I am going to respond to beyond pointing out that such comments reflect more on the people who make them than the person toward whom they are directed. Even worse they distract from thinking about the substantive points I was trying to make.

Don

Anyone expecting a response from the post I made is a few fries short of a happy meal.

Rather it is the observation of types of backgrounds relating to how one views "junk" verses "treasure" and how it relates to "junk" SD's, BC's, CA's, CL's, DD's be it SLN "junk" or Silesian inherited "junk".

JohnRoth wrote:Let's take an example that doesn't involve SDs. Assume you've got a couple of hundred Glock 22s (or maybe 23 - the one that many police departments in the US use) and a few hundred thousand rounds of ammunition.

Now assume your time machine drops them into the US at about 1776. Those suckers would blow away the Redcoats. You might lose a few people because muskets at that time had longer range, but once they got into range, they would be dead.

Nobody in that time frame could maintain them, nobody in that time frame could build them, nobody in that time frame could even make the ammunition.

What happens once they're gone?

What happens after the bullets are gone? The soldiers use their previous weapons. But that doesn't mean they wouldn't use them. You can bet they would because even though the supply of ammunition is very limited, it's still tons better than anything they have, and they'd use them as long as they lasted (and dismantle a few for study to try and figure out how they work so they try and make more of them). It's the same issue with the captured ships and equipment. Sure they might not be able to maintain them completely, but they can be useful and are ultimately, better than what they had before.

And on the subject of a lack of trained personnel, that's easy. As someone pointed out earlier, have classes. The captured SLN personnel that operated the machinery could be given an offer; to help train the locals in using/maintaining the equipment in exchange for a limited freedom. Heck, it could be a way to offer citizenship to some of the prisoners, and given how fast people seem to think the SL is going to fall apart completely, there's no reason to think the SLN personnel would be anymore loyal to the SL and SLN.

Zakharra wrote:And on the subject of a lack of trained personnel, that's easy. As someone pointed out earlier, have classes. The captured SLN personnel that operated the machinery could be given an offer; to help train the locals in using/maintaining the equipment in exchange for a limited freedom. Heck, it could be a way to offer citizenship to some of the prisoners, and given how fast people seem to think the SL is going to fall apart completely, there's no reason to think the SLN personnel would be anymore loyal to the SL and SLN.

Biggest problem I see there is that it takes a lot more than a few weeks training to produce at least semi-competent techs. Circumstances would vary depending on instructor, pupils and whatever they had to work with, of course.

7thsealord wrote:Circumstances would vary depending on instructor, pupils and whatever they had to work with, of course.

Those captured SLN ships have computer aided training for every step of career advancement for every career designation they require and given the storage capacity of Honorverse computers the SDs at least should have a complete library of every SLN training course and a wide selection of university courses. All in a computer directed self-paced learning format.

Military education is an ongoing process and even today a lot is correspondence and/or online after initial specialty schools. The SLN -- at least Frontier Fleet -- accepts under educated recruits from protectorates and verge systems, so the complete libraries of SLN training courses should include a "Zero-level" starting point that covers basic principles and remedial education.

It has however been 18 months or so since the Talbot Quadrant became part of the Star Empire of Manticore and that is ample time for adequate trainers and training aids to have been set in motion -- a year before the acquisition of Adm Crandall's task force -- so any benefit from captured ships is likely to be purely supplemental.

Zakharra wrote: And on the subject of a lack of trained personnel, that's easy. As someone pointed out earlier, have classes. The captured SLN personnel that operated the machinery could be given an offer; to help train the locals in using/maintaining the equipment in exchange for a limited freedom. Heck, it could be a way to offer citizenship to some of the prisoners, and given how fast people seem to think the SL is going to fall apart completely, there's no reason to think the SLN personnel would be anymore loyal to the SL and SLN.

In the Honorverse, it takes Manticore at least two years in the middle of a shooting war to turn a bright college student into what they consider a serviceable low-level tech rating. Producing competent senior officers and enlisted will take longer than that.

So somebody remind me again what happened to all those wonderful battleships, cruisers (we'll leave out the diesel subs) that say ... South America acquired. You know with all the manuals, medical facilities, machine shops, boats, probably small arms ... everything but the people. Or for that matter latest and greatest military ships places in the Middle East acquire.

Just curious why Earth's version of the Verge wasn't jump started by all these wonderful things and we expect them to do so in the future.

People confuse scale a lot. What one man/family can do a big number of the above cannot. Of course the opposite is true as well.

Enjoy,
T2M

thinkstoomuch wrote:So somebody remind me again what happened to all those wonderful battleships, cruisers (we'll leave out the diesel subs) that say ... South America acquired. You know with all the manuals, medical facilities, machine shops, boats, probably small arms ... everything but the people. Or for that matter latest and greatest military ships places in the Middle East acquire.

Well, for one thing, they were actually using them as warships, which at least in my opinion (and truth be told, there are so many varying opinions you need to be a polymath to figure them out) is not the case it Talbott or elsewhere. I concur that using them in any combat sort of role is out of the question.

Just curious why Earth's version of the Verge wasn't jump started by all these wonderful things and we expect them to do so in the future.

Because they (present-data nations) were pre-disposed to use them for war. And some have up-graded to building their own ships (see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baynunah-class_corvette)

People confuse scale a lot. What one man/family can do a big number of the above cannot. Of course the opposite is true as well.

And in this you may be right, T2M. But the addition of 30-45 intra-plantary ships (pinnaces, etc.), what amounts to 4-5 new and modern hospitals (I figure that a Solly SD with 6,500+ personnel would require facilites for around 10% casualties, or 500+), and whatever else could be utilized (and give the Talbotters some credit, I am sure they can be most inventive), and I think that it would have at least some impact.

IMHO. Interested in all the other ones, too, having a seven (or is it eight) sided argument is an interesting experience....

Using pre industrialized South American nations as a basis for the Honorverse is absurd. They had no industry. None. Likewise, when +++90% of the population grows up on a farm, is illiterate, without tractors, electricity, refrigeration, and are barely sustenance farming; stating said ships could not be maintained is now the basis for the Honorverse, is absurd.

The verge is not a bunch of bumbling illiterate idiots who do not have industry. They have industry. It is simply hopelessly out-dated. True, there are some that went back to stoneage, and remained there, but even Dresden or New Tuscany or Saltash or Zunker has the tech personnel for an explosive expansion of their naval military. The only question is can they find any goods worth selling to someone with said ships who will actually TRADE with them.

Why?

A tech is a tech is a tech. Electrical technicians today, would still be 100% viable in the Honorverse 2000 years from now. A mechanical tech today is perfectly viable 2000 years from now. A civil tech today is perfectly viable 2000 years from now. A civil tech from 500 years ago who built cathedrals/bridges/ships/canons is perfectly viable today as soon as they get caught up with what modern machinery means for efficiency purposes and logic flow for a project. That takes at most a couple of months.

A tool is a tool. It is not some magic device requiring a genius with 4 years schooling to use. Tools require hours, days at most to become a viable if slow worker. Tools require a couple months of use, to become top of the line proficient at.

Problem solving skills transfer from one specialty to another in very short order. It is a built in mind set. These problem solving skills are not taught in a classroom, outside of very basic theory, regulations, safety procedures(turn off the damned power, close the valves), that are taught in 2 months.

Technical skills are learned by DOING.

It is why someone coming out of college with a degree is nothing but a drone. Now if someone comes out of college who has worked on multiple hands-on projects, not white papers, and has mechanical/electrical hobbies on the side, will be a viable worker straight out of college.

Just because a military(cough, snicker, Manticore) chooses to only get ignorant young people, techs out of high school/college, does not mean they could not easily get them out of the civilian market. Where do you think all of the techs 10's of thousands of techs came from during WWII? The civilian market and the scut work that drones could do was given over to the youths. How/where do you think the army corps of engineers miraculously expanded from in WWII? It sure as Hell was not a classroom as postulated in the Honorverse. Now add in that this is a prolong society, so the number of young clueless people is vastly fewer than older folks with technical skills and this really becomes a big laugh.