new/old dead horse, futher beating requested

drothgery wrote:This is your annual reminder that trying to use a ship of the wall as anything other than a ship of the wall is extremely, extremely inefficient. To the point where it's more practical to build whatever you actually want from scratch even if you need to build the shipyard first. And SLN SDs are really, really bad ships of the wall.

Despite the wishes of the Honorverse's pack rats, there really is nothing useful that can be done with them. Even their present use as improvised prison hulks is only temporary, because Manticore doesn't have any place else to keep them yet (the POW camp that held the survivors of Tourville's fleet is far too small).

For modern systems yes, but for systems that don;t have it, despite the inefficiencies, the tech from these captured ships could help the lower tech/poorer systems. It's not an optimal use for them, but it is doable, and it can be done at a more minimal cost to the SEM than building entirely new stations and such in each system.

Lelder5 should be flogged for flogging the dead equine.

I continue to believe that SLN SDs should be used for flogging EE violations.

Zakharra wrote:

drothgery wrote:This is your annual reminder that trying to use a ship of the wall as anything other than a ship of the wall is extremely, extremely inefficient. To the point where it's more practical to build whatever you actually want from scratch even if you need to build the shipyard first. And SLN SDs are really, really bad ships of the wall.

Despite the wishes of the Honorverse's pack rats, there really is nothing useful that can be done with them. Even their present use as improvised prison hulks is only temporary, because Manticore doesn't have any place else to keep them yet (the POW camp that held the survivors of Tourville's fleet is far too small).

For modern systems yes, but for systems that don;t have it, despite the inefficiencies, the tech from these captured ships could help the lower tech/poorer systems. It's not an optimal use for them, but it is doable, and it can be done at a more minimal cost to the SEM than building entirely new stations and such in each system.

Even for backwards planets, they are useless, because they will break down fairly soon (my bet? Less than 2 years), and there is a distinct lack of spare parts, not to mention, the technology *on* those backwards planets to *make* spare parts, and install/repair/replace anything that *does* break. Once they get the tech to be able to do that, they will be able to make their own ships modeled more on those from the RMN, GSN, or RHN (or just about *any* star nation other than the Sollies).

Sure, maybe they can take a few things apart and learn some new tech from them, but the question is whether they can *do* anything with what they've learned. They'll need to build the tools to make what they've learned, but before that, they'll need to build the tools to build the tools, to build the tools... and so on. Again, by the time they've done that, even for a backwards, lo-tech planet/system, the Sollies SD's will be just as useless as they currently are - for *anything*.

Threads like this make me wish that RFC had just had the RMN set the destruct charges on them to begin with, or use the tugs to send them into Manticore A or B (or both).

Frankly, if it were up to me, the *only* thing those floating graveyards are useful for is target practice for your missile and gunnery crews.

Oh, and Drothgery... you really ought to change "annual" to "monthly".

Given that the SLN ships core design is about 200 years old, everyone should be able to make parts for them that will work. Even Cuba can keep 1950s cars running and I'll bet that Sierra Leone can fix a steam engine circa 1860, though it might take a while.

MaxxQ wrote:

Zakharra wrote:
For modern systems yes, but for systems that don;t have it, despite the inefficiencies, the tech from these captured ships could help the lower tech/poorer systems. It's not an optimal use for them, but it is doable, and it can be done at a more minimal cost to the SEM than building entirely new stations and such in each system.

Even for backwards planets, they are useless, because they will break down fairly soon (my bet? Less than 2 years), and there is a distinct lack of spare parts, not to mention, the technology *on* those backwards planets to *make* spare parts, and install/repair/replace anything that *does* break. Once they get the tech to be able to do that, they will be able to make their own ships modeled more on those from the RMN, GSN, or RHN (or just about *any* star nation other than the Sollies).

Sure, maybe they can take a few things apart and learn some new tech from them, but the question is whether they can *do* anything with what they've learned. They'll need to build the tools to make what they've learned, but before that, they'll need to build the tools to build the tools, to build the tools... and so on. Again, by the time they've done that, even for a backwards, lo-tech planet/system, the Sollies SD's will be just as useless as they currently are - for *anything*.

Threads like this make me wish that RFC had just had the RMN set the destruct charges on them to begin with, or use the tugs to send them into Manticore A or B (or both).

Frankly, if it were up to me, the *only* thing those floating graveyards are useful for is target practice for your missile and gunnery crews.

Oh, and Drothgery... you really ought to change "annual" to "monthly".

The thing is, Manticore isn't going to be in any position to do anything for them technologically for quite awhile. They -have- to get their own industrial/military shipyards and factories that build their ships, weapons, missiles and nanites up and running first and from what I've seen, that's going to take years even with help from Beowulf. So it's going to be awhile before the SEM will be building anything of importance in the Talbott cluster. Right now though, the SLN tech is considered advanced compared to the standard tech of the local systems. They can use the equipment, as outdated as it is compared to modern RMN/RHN ships. And it is there and avalible.

But remember this, twenty years ago in game, Solly military tech was considered to be just as good as anything Manticore had at the time. Barring a few things, but what Manticore had that the SLN didn't, was a need to improve and advance their tech, to do R&D the SLN never did. THAT is what has given them the edge and in twenty years, rendered the SLN fleets so much junk. Twenty years ago though, the SLN would have steamrolled Manticore and the PRH with only a some problems (more to the size of the PRH than any tech advantages the PRH might have had).

Yes using the SDs and smaller ships as parts and impromptu space stations is sub-optimal for Mabnticore and RH and Grayson, but those things, as sub-optimal as they are, are grades better than anything the local systems have or can make. And they can be taught to maintain them. Some of the SDs could be used as parts ships, captured SLN technicians could be given an offer that they help- maintain and teach the locals to maintain/make the parts, work the ships, to give the locals a working knowledge of -how- to use the tech. SEM/GA tech is as far above the SLN tech as SLN tech is above theirs in many places, but the basics are the same in many aspects I think. And more importantly, it's there and available, while the GA tech improvements are years off in the distance. It's going to be a long time, I think, before the Talbott Cluster/Quadrant is going to be building any ships at the Ga/SEM's level of tech.

Zakharra wrote:But remember this, twenty years ago in game, Solly military tech was considered to be just as good as anything Manticore had at the time.

The thing is that while almost everyone believed this in-universe (even within the RMN), it wasn't actually true. Every post-1880 PD RMN warship design had both at least marginally more advanced underlying technology (and by 1905 PD or so quite noticeably more advanced underlying tech) AND designs that were much more in line with the real post-laser head (and later post-missile pod, and still later post-pod layer) threat environment. This was also true of People's Navy designs that had less advanced underlying technology, but would still have been superior in an actual fight (shady Solarian defense contractors were selling the Peeps the tech to build better ships than the SLN did).

kzt wrote:Given that the SLN ships core design is about 200 years old, everyone should be able to make parts for them that will work. Even Cuba can keep 1950s cars running and I'll bet that Sierra Leone can fix a steam engine circa 1860, though it might take a while.

Virtually all of the old 1950s cars in Cuba has been retrofitted with small diesel engines.

The problem is that that situation can't be compared to the situation with the obsolete SD's. They may be obsolete, but they are still high-tech creations and if your current industry doesn't have an equal or slightly higher tech-base it's going to be prohibitively expensive to keep them running since you are going to have problems repairing equipment.

Then there is the other problem if your tech-base is much more advanced (ie. several generation later) you aren't going to repair the old stuff, you are practically forced to replace it equipment with new. For example, if you take a TV-set from the 1950s that's broken down it may be cheaper just to buy a new one instead of trying to get someone to repair it.

Joat42 wrote:
Then there is the other problem if your tech-base is much more advanced (ie. several generation later) you aren't going to repair the old stuff, you are practically forced to replace it equipment with new. For example, if you take a TV-set from the 1950s that's broken down it may be cheaper just to buy a new one instead of trying to get someone to repair it.

Very bad example.

Old TV's are very easy to repair and calibrate. There is a reason there was a TV repair shop right next to Radio Shack or in the same store usually. Now the number of people who still know how to do this quickly and cheaply is decreasing drastically as modern electronics one literally cannot repair unless one has the schematic on hand whereas old electronics one could easily trace. Any electrician technician will be able to easily recalibrate a TV. Old TV repair requires a screwdriver and often a replacement capacitor... A newer CRT screen is actually much harder to repair than old CRT's as things are embedded in silicon chips instead of placed on circuit boards easily accessible and traceable. Though generally all one had to do was a quick check of the caps, and then recalibrate. 10min max later, viola, good as new.

We still calibrate our old ancient CRT oscilloscopes as their lag is vastly lower than anything "modern" even though they cannot store the wave form. If we want to store, we send the signal out of the scope and to an A/D converter tied to computer. Could do the exact same thing with Computer CRT screens and have done so. Take lightly used top line used 21" or 24" screens have quality far surpassing that of LCD. Get them for free. True, the phsopors inside the tubes have degraded but they will still be flawless otherwise. Last couple of years have seen LCD surpass CRT in terms of resolution, pitch, and color, but their lag is still abysmal. This will be surpassed very soon.

A better example would be repairing steam engines. Why? Give a few more years and no one will know how to weld fixing the pressure vessels, burnners, etc. Of course, anyone with half a brain cell to rub together will easily see that a modern engine replacement will be far more compact, efficient, and quiet and simply replace-move on.

The problem with the SD's is the same problem faced by the Iowa class Battleships. If you want a good laugh, read naval forums where old nostalgic farts try to "fix"/replace, the BB's boilers which are dead. All that armor literally makes it impossible to replace components deep inside the ship. Sure, it could be done, but it would be slightly more expensive, and just as quick, assuming there is a design, to build a new battleship without all the maintenance incompatibility nightmares. Of course the armor scheme is still obsolete. SD's armor on the other hand is not obsolete. Not as good as modern stuff, but not obsolete. So maybe they are really only tough BC's. Not exactly a bad thing. Better than a LAC rowboat with a praying priest at the helm defense.

Sure, if you suffer a major engineering casualty then it's a write-off. However, given the sort of redundancy SDs have, you can have a failed reactor and still operate fine off the other 4 for years. But the typical sort of minor issues that you need parts to repair are going to be able to made by anyone who has the ability to do any work on impeller drive vessels, or can be salvaged from another more broken sd. So yeah, over time things will fall apart, but using slightly used SLN SDs is not a long term answer to anything anyhow. It's a short-term counter to the zombie apocalypse, until you can arrange a better solution.

kzt wrote:Sure, if you suffer a major engineering casualty then it's a write-off. However, given the sort of redundancy SDs have, you can have a failed reactor and still operate fine off the other 4 for years. But the typical sort of minor issues that you need parts to repair are going to be able to made by anyone who has the ability to do any work on impeller drive vessels, or can be salvaged from another more broken sd. So yeah, over time things will fall apart, but using slightly used SLN SDs is not a long term answer to anything anyhow. It's a short-term counter to the zombie apocalypse, until you can arrange a better solution.

The thing is that it's not a better solution than much. It can't fight anything resembling a modern waller or even a modern BC squadron (and I'm not even talking BC(P)s or Nikes here), because its missile defenses are horrible. It can't fight lighter stuff except by accident because it can't catch them, since Sollie compensators suck so badly Manty ships of the wall can out-accelerate SLN destroyers. And that's with experienced Solarian personnel running them. It's true that a Scientist in orbit would scare off two-bit raiders, but any real warship would do that.

If you have sufficient trained personnel to run the thing, they're almost certainly better off running what you trained them for (you probably don't have sufficient trained personnel to run the thing unless you already have BCs or quite a lot of lighter stuff, in which case an SD playing scarecrow is of very little value to you). And if you don't have sufficient trained personnel to run the thing, then it's useless.